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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: a novel idea for reviving HoMM8
Thread: a novel idea for reviving HoMM8 This thread is 10 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT»
dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted June 21, 2020 02:05 PM
Edited by dj at 14:14, 21 Jun 2020.

Quote:
MMH6 and 7 stagnated on both sides: same heroes 3 formula, same visuals


Did you even play these games? Because neither has the h3 formula. H6 tried some new things but failed at it. H7 (somehow) tried to be conservative but also failed at it.

No need to be toxic, we can talk without anger here.

No i havent but iwatched closely how the game was developed.

New formula? like what? core/elite/champion thingy? That is not new. it's still 7 creatures. HoMM 4 had something new in that regard, but 7 creatures in a line-up divided into 3 things...not new. it's like a new skin for something we already know.

What other new thing? Minimal hero development? No, not enough. Something more complex is needed. We already had hero development in a minimal manner (h5 skill system, h4 hero on battlefield).


Quote:


Hard disagree. 3D does not mean upgrade and the art direction lost its orginal charm imo.


Disagree or not, it's a fact. HoMM 5 was successful precisely because of that. 3D graphs. Visuals are a huge part of a game.

And one more proff that 3D was fate-changing: even if people complained about warcrafty looks, it still had success. Because gameplay wise it included h3 formula, had literally no innovation, but made everything more complex: alternative upgrades, more complex skill system, hero on battlefield like in 4, many factions and 3D graphs.

So it was all previous HoMM games with 3D.

I dont get it why  you dont see it. It seems clear to me.

EDIT: yes, it had 1 impactful innovation and this will highlight my point because it is on the 3d graphs side: 3D townscreens.


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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
posted June 21, 2020 02:19 PM

Galaad said:
dj said:
HoMM 5 was (huge) upgrade on visuals.


Hard disagree. 3D does not mean upgrade and the art direction lost its orginal charm imo.



Yeah, if anything, to me it was more like a huge downgrade. I complained about the H5 3D and art even in 2006-2007, and I got replies like "everyone needs 3D graphics!"

Not everyone. Call me a purist, conservative, or whatever, I don't mind.
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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted June 21, 2020 02:34 PM

Ok, sure.

I am open to admit that i might be wrong on the 3D part. I dont know exaclty, but im trying to figure it out what the  perfect heroes formula is.

Logically and in comparisson, this is the innovative element in homm5: graphics; and it has such a huge success.

And it s ok for a developer to make small innovations from installment to another, but ubi basically stagnated  on both sides in MMH6 and MMH7, it's basically 3 games in different skins (more or less), ofc it's dull and repetitive.


I, as a player, expect huge innovations from an installment to another.

@Firepaladin, can you make a poll here and on reddit to see the real statistics about the 3D graphics VS 2D graphics among fans?

There are main 3 generations of heroes 3 fans:
1. heroes 2 fans
2. heroes 3 fans
3. heroes 5 fans
Other generations (which express opinion on HC less but still count)
4. heroes 1 fans
5. heroes 4 fans
6. heroes 6,7 fans


generation 1 and 2 prefer 2D and express their opinion on HC more because they are old HC members
generation 3 prefer 3D but probably dont roam around HC as much.


FRom a poll made by Firepaladin, i remember that he was surpised that the majority on reddit voted for tree + dragon as lvl 7 in elf faction.
Why? because generation 6 roam around reddit more.


Im not saying that you are not right or that your opinion sucks, im saying that you are probably 10 people here on HC that stuck to heroes 3 and express your opinions and this is why we are 'led to think' that 3d visuals are not a good innovation, whereas logically, i think that was the element that unearthed the series.


The lore part was one of the things that set the series back. Imagine HoMM 5 with H3 dungeon, fotress, more than 9 factions as it should be, original universe.

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted June 21, 2020 02:38 PM

Quote:
Disagree or not, it's a fact. HoMM 5 was successful precisely because of that. 3D graphs. Visuals are a huge part of a game
I disagree with your statement.

It would be interesting to know how many Heroes 3 fans are still playing Heroes V, and what their opinion is about which one of the 2 is better. Because I think that Heroes V has been "successful" among the new (de)generation of players (you know, the ones who think that the mor realistic-looking a game is, and the better visuals it has the better the game is).

If these are the players that have made Heroes V successful, that's no surprise indeed. The new generation of HoMM players do seem to be fallen madly in love with shiny graphics, but that's mot the purpose of a game like HoMM. Visuals are indeed huge part of a game, just not a HoMM game. A HoMM game should shine in other areas:

1) strategy
2) replayability
3) fun (comes from the other 2 being perfectly intertwined)
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted June 21, 2020 02:44 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 14:44, 21 Jun 2020.

Guys, visuals is a controversial topic. Yes, you can make it 3D and have the same charm, but you first need to find the right graphic style for the 3D models first. And this in itself is tough.
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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted June 21, 2020 02:45 PM
Edited by dj at 14:47, 21 Jun 2020.

monere said:


It would be interesting to know how many Heroes 3 fans are still playing Heroes V, and what their opinion is about which one of the 2 is better. Because I think that Heroes V has been "successful" among the new (de)generation of players (you know, the ones who think that the mor realistic-looking a game is, and the better visuals it has the better the game is).



Sorry to say that, but talking badly about the new generation is not helpful nor healthy. The new generation consumed homm5, without them, the series would have been dead since homm4.

Whereas i dont see a player like you saving the series by consuming over and over homm3 when mmh7 was released years ago only because he cant accept 3D visuals.

Again, facts are facts, but untill we see some results on the poll i requested to FirePaladin, i will refrain myself from saying anything more about 3D graphs because i might be wrong. And i comply with that. We all have one thing in common and our quest is to find the perfect heroes formula. We need to figre this out as a team and not separate.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted June 21, 2020 02:52 PM

dj said:
monere said:


It would be interesting to know how many Heroes 3 fans are still playing Heroes V, and what their opinion is about which one of the 2 is better. Because I think that Heroes V has been "successful" among the new (de)generation of players (you know, the ones who think that the mor realistic-looking a game is, and the better visuals it has the better the game is).


Again, facts are facts, but untill we see some results on the poll i requested to FirePaladin, i will refrain myself from saying anything more about 3D graphs because i might be wrong. And i comply with that. We all have one thing in common and our quest is to find the perfect heroes formula. We need to figre this out as a team and not separate.


What poll did you request me?
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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted June 21, 2020 02:53 PM

dj said:
monere said:


It would be interesting to know how many Heroes 3 fans are still playing Heroes V, and what their opinion is about which one of the 2 is better. Because I think that Heroes V has been "successful" among the new (de)generation of players (you know, the ones who think that the mor realistic-looking a game is, and the better visuals it has the better the game is).



Sorry to say that, but talking badly about the new generation is not helpful nor healthy. The new generation consumed homm5, without them, the series would have been dead since homm4.

Whereas i dont see a player like you saving the series by consuming over and over homm3 when mmh7 was released years ago only because he cant accept 3D visuals.

Again, facts are facts, but untill we see some results on the poll i requested to FirePaladin, i will refrain myself from saying anything more about 3D graphs because i might be wrong. And i comply with that. We all have one thing in common and our quest is to find the perfect heroes formula. We need to figre this out as a team and not separate.


The perfect heroes formula?? Heroes 3 WoG has achieved the perfect formula. WoG has got lots of strategy involved because it has lots of new, and unique elements that vanilla doesn't have. And since it has lots of elements, making every game you create using those elements literally indefinitely replayable... that's the perfect formula in my book.
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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted June 21, 2020 02:54 PM

dj said:

@Firepaladin, can you make a poll here and on reddit to see the real statistics about the 3D graphics VS 2D graphics among fans?


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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted June 21, 2020 02:55 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 15:00, 21 Jun 2020.

dj said:
dj said:

@Firepaladin, can you make a poll here and on reddit to see the real statistics about the 3D graphics VS 2D graphics among fans?




Ah, sorry, I might have missed it since I wasn't that active here these days. The thing is, tough, the fans will take it like H5 VS H3 graphics, when there are more 3D styles and possibilities than what Ubi gave us.

But yeah, I'll do it these days.

@monere

Well, if that's what WoG really did brought, then technically dj's ideas are bad, but that isn't really the case (at least since most fans hate WoG for it being too crappy visually).

Besides, WoG could have technically been better.... but I won't reveal any more.
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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted June 21, 2020 03:06 PM

what are dj's ideas, though? I failed to see them. All he does is agreeing with other people who said that 3D is better and what made HV successful, and how the franchise lives due to 3D alone because people who like 3D have made Ubisoft money. That's hardly an idea, but merely an agreement to someone else's opinion.

As for you not revealing more about WoG, may I ask why? WoG is the only game I still play every year in the entire franchise of HoMM and I can't find anything bad with it. On the contrary, WoG has added more - MANY more, actually - elements to the table, has improved the 5hitty skills (believe it or not I have had a game once when I had reloaded the last save until I have been offered eagle eye).. on top of all these, WoG creatures can level up to 10 times in WoG and upgrades add more unique abilities and specials to the upgraded creatures. I haven't seen any of these improvements in Heroes V, VI, VII or HotA, although I admit that I have never given HotA a try. I just don't need to because WoG satisfies all of my needs.

So, why won't you reveal any more about WoG, and what else is there to reveal that is so confidential or groundbreaking that can't be "revealed"? Enlighten me, please!
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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted June 21, 2020 03:20 PM
Edited by dj at 15:26, 21 Jun 2020.

but WoG formula it Heroes 3 formula. It is not a different game altogether. It's just an expansion.


It adds complexity to the game not gameplay changes:
1. new resource
2. new artifacts
3. new creatures
4. new (set) of abilities to each creatures (stack experience) which is nothing groundbreaking...it s just new abilities
5. new map objects

maybe this is pretty innovative but we see it in HoMM 4
6. commanders which (could) function as heroes on battlefield, but it s really only a more complex creature on the battlefield, nothing much.
7. town rebuilding maybe is an innovative mechanic, but it doesnt change gameplay that much.

What is innovative in WoG really?

Only the fact that it is more easily modded. That is what actually ERA, WoG and VCMI are: Level of modification, so that modder can innovate.

Salamandre's Atlantis map is probably considered to be an innovation, different from Heores 3 experience (havent played it tho'), for example.

WoG is basically what i said in the previous posts that i suggest you to read. The fact that you dont see them, doesnt mean that they are not there.

WoG made gameplay elements more complex, which i numbered above (new resource, abilities etc).

But WoG lacked stability, graphics (heroes 3 graphics ok, but specific WoG graphics were hideous no offence for the effort of the team but they were literally extractions from other games).


What dj has is a perspective towards the future, which is the trajectory in life.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 21, 2020 03:28 PM

dj said:
No need to be toxic, we can talk without anger here.

No i havent but iwatched closely how the game was developed.


There was no anger in my reply. I genuinely asked you if you played the games, because if you had you would have not said that. And turns out you hadn't. There's nothing wrong in reproaching you making statements about games you didn't play. Following development and reviews is not enough.

Too many things were new, I can assure you this game does not play like H3 or H5 at all. Some H6 fans actually don't even like H3, hopefully that says enough.
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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted June 21, 2020 03:31 PM
Edited by dj at 15:32, 21 Jun 2020.

Galaad said:
dj said:


Too many things were new, I can assure you this game does not play like H3 or H5 at all. Some H6 fans actually don't even like H3, hopefully that says enough.


Please list a few. I am working my **s off to make myself clear and to express properly, if you want to convice me otherwise and prove it, please do the same as myself. I am open being changed.

The goal of discussion is progress not argument.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 21, 2020 03:38 PM
Edited by Galaad at 15:42, 21 Jun 2020.

Not random skill system, no magic system, only one rare resource are the biggest ones.

Then many little things that have great impact like the way battles worked (most if not all units getting though whole battlefield in two turns), core units being able to beat champion units too easily, town conversion, no respawn of creatures on map, the list is VERY long.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 21, 2020 03:46 PM

dj said:
Oh, and let's not forget about the lore that influences greatly the gameplay/player experience.

The lore part was one of the things that set the series back. Imagine HoMM 5 with H3 dungeon, fotress, more than 9 factions as it should be, original universe.


Might as well say I'm 200% in agreement with you behind that point though.
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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted June 21, 2020 03:59 PM

Quote:
but WoG formula it Heroes 3 formula. It is not a different game altogether. It's just an expansion
just because you call it expansion doesn't mean that it's not innovative. Those who like WoG like it exactly because it's innovative

Quote:
It adds complexity to the game not gameplay changes:
all these elements are gameplay changes, because they change the way you play the game (duh!)

new creatures
new artifacts
new abilities
new map objects

Quote:
4. new (set) of abilities to each creatures (stack experience) which is nothing groundbreaking...it s just new abilities
and yet, I haven't see a single HoMM game after WoG to do this. Therefore it IS groundbreaking... at least in the HoMM franchise, cause other games might have this already

Quote:
commanders which (could) function as heroes on battlefield, but it s really only a more complex creature on the battlefield, nothing much
and I suppose Heroes 4 heroes act as heroes (sarcasm)

Quote:
What is innovative in WoG really?
when compared to Heroes 3 (since it has come out BEFORE HoMM 4,5,6, and 7, and as such, it can only be compared to Heroes 3) a lot of things are innovative in WoG. I just mentioned them in an earlier post, and you've listed them in your reply, too, so I won't insist

Quote:
Only the fact that it is more easily modded.
how is this a plus for players? Modding is something that only modders care about. Me, for example, which has no clue about programming and modding, I couldn't care less if it's moddable or not. I like it for what it offers me as a player. Please stop trying to denigrate WoG. Just because you don't like it (have you ever played it by the way?) doesn't mean that it's a bad game, or that it's not innovative when it has changed/added so many thing when compared to vanilla. Also, when I ask if you have played the game I don't mean just log into WoG, see the plethora of customization options, then freak out and rage quit never touching WoG ever again. I have done the exact same thing... about 3-4 times before finally deciding (years later, and only after I got bored of SoD and have wanted more) to give it another try. At that point I have installed WoG again, logged into it knowing exactly what to expect, and I have wasted about 6 hours going through all of the customizations, reading what each one of them did, and then using the ones I liked. And then, 6-7 hours later I have created my first WoG game, and I have played it and then... I rage quit cause I didn't understand 5hit of what was going on in there cause it was so different from SoD. And then, the next day I logged in again cause I had just thought about the game before going to sleep as I laid in bed and thought about all of the new things I have experienced in the game. I have slept on all the things that WoG has made me experience, both good and bad, and next day I immediately rushed to the computer and fired up WoG again. I created a new map, changed a few settings in WoG customization menu again cause I didn't like the ones I thought were the best, and tried playing again with the new settings.

And I rinsed and repeated this scenario daily for a couple of weeks until I finally tuned the game to suit my style of play. And after those 2 weeks of trial and error I pretty much know everything I like about WoG and how to customize it to give me the most joy. But to get to that point I have spent countless of days fine-tuning the game and lots of game restarts and frustrations until I had learned how to play it properly ("properly" as in "the way I like").

So, unless you have went through the same cumbersome learning curve for weeks, and have played the game weekly for a few years I reserve the right to not believe a word from your whining and downtalking of WoG.

I have seen lots of folks on this forum who have "played" WoG (for a few minutes) before rage quitting and telling me how it 5ucks. I don't care about these people's option in the slightest... I mean, their opinion about WoG, cause otherwise I have nothing personal against them. But if they tell me how WoG is 5hit when they haven't even played the game for at least 6 months, DAILY or WEEKLY, I can't take them seriously

Quote:
But WoG lacked stability
stability in what way? The WoG I am playing is stable as any other game. I haven't had a screen freeze / crash in my WoG games for a decade

Quote:
specific WoG graphics were hideous
I agree with you. I don't like them, either, but the game overall is so good that I simply don't care about those graphics. Some of them are cool, though, both visually and gameplay-wise (the market of time for example, as well as that skeleton head in the ground that locates artifacts, I don't remember how it's called).

But anyway, the fact that you can't enjoy a game like Heroes because of the poor looking graphics makes me believe you are not older than 25 (which puts you in the category of younger generations of players who only like games that look stunning)

Quote:
What dj has is a perspective towards the future, which is the trajectory in life.
um, what?!?
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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted June 21, 2020 04:21 PM
Edited by dj at 16:38, 21 Jun 2020.

Of course that adding a new creature, town, ability, artefact changes things but minimmally and this is NOT an innovation. They dont change anything to the gameplay/mechanics.

I have tested games at work and i can tell you that those examples are not innovations, just additions.

Creatures experience are still abilities added to Heroes3 complete abilities.
The fact that core creatures in MMH6 can kill a champion is still an ability, not a mechanic.


Yes, i have played WoG and i had a cool commander in a 1v1 match and crashed. We had to reload the game before the final battle because it froze and the commanders were lvl 1. And that was a few years ago (2-3). WoG is anything but stable. The fact that you go through the same working scripts and dont get out of the pattern to cause crashes, conflicts etc. doesnt mean that it's stable. And it is a well known fact that wog is unfinished, therefore, It cannot be stable.


MMH6 sucked because of at least these 2 elements:
a) the existence of 1 resource which is a counter-innovative dimension of the game why not expand this dimension of the game? like more resources or resources that are specific to a faction
b) and lack of town screens in the firt final release. They released town screen later at the rage of the fans and, apparently, they added the ability to switch to another castle. Again, this is an ability to the town screen dimension, not really innovative in gameplay.


Ok, WoG had commanders as innovation next to heroes 3 and HoMM 4/5 used it after it. This is a feature of success in the series. That's what ive been saying and u re arguing about.


I am not denigrating WoG btw. It's a gem and a blessing. Im only being objective towards the quality of the content. And this is it.


I am enjoying even HoMM 4. I am replaying when im the mood: H3, WoG, H4, H5. And i am 27. Never once did i say that i am not enjoying either of the game, they have their charm, even h4. that's why a perfect formula is the combination of all of them + other modern things that HoMM didnt approach. One of the dimensions of HoMM (5,6,7 almost half of the series) is 3D graphics.


Your assumptions about me are very wrong and with no real back up. I have joined (JOINED only, because i roam this forum since earlier) in 2006, 7 years before you. I can say that YOU Are the younger generation here.

EDIT: Turns out you re 39 and fellow romanian....only a person above 35 would use the generation argument. why didnt i notice that before?

My perspective is for the benefits of the series, not for the benefits of myself.

/EDIT

HoMM 3 is the best installment for me, but that doesnt mean that 3D graphics isnt the best choice for this series (objectively) cuz...you know...maybe the standards of the gaming industry have been raised drastically in the past 10-15 years. IDK, just saying...Even Mario developers adapted the game to have awesome 3D graphics on the console.

EDIT 2:
BUT NOOOO HoMM 3 fans who cant get over the game cant accept modern approach of visuals. Maybe the community is what keeps the series back and not the develoers. Havent thought of that before...

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted June 21, 2020 05:01 PM

I'm 40 now, yes, which means I'm part of the generation that takes HoMM for what it actually is: a strategy game, not a java game on your mobile that you're accessing occasionally so that your friends think you are cool cause you like "strategy" games.

As for you being a HC long before me, that's not the point at all of what I said. When I said that you are part of the younger generations I literally referred to your age, not to how long you've been on HC

Quote:
HoMM 3 is the best installment for me
good! Let's keep it like that

Quote:
but that doesnt mean that 3D graphics isnt the best choice for this series
yes, it does.

Quote:
cuz...you know...maybe the standards of the gaming industry have been raised drastically in the past 10-15 years
list the 5 most popular TBS games so I can check if they're 3D or 2D. If they're 3D I'll agree that you have a point, even if in my intimacy I will still mumble "phuck you and your 3D graphics" in my chin. But, publicly, I will admit that you are right and that 3D is the future

Quote:
Even Mario developers adapted the game to have awesome 3D graphics on the console
my god, man! WTF has Mario (or any other shiny game) to do with a TBS game like Heroes?!? Can't you really understand that each game / game genre needs to shine in totaly different areas? By your logic chess, minesweeper, solitaire, poker, sudoku or tetris should be obsolete and/or non-existent anymore because they don't have Final Fantasy / God Of War / Path of Exile type of graphics. HoMM is a STRATEGY and TBS game, and in strategy TBS games 3D graphics have no priority. Notice I said PRIORITY, not PLACE. If the game overall is good and the 3D graphics don't spoil the fun by all means, make it all 3D. But when objects are hard to spot on the adventure map, and the graphics in general are bulky and oversaturated with colours... yeah, no thanks! I'd rather take the Mighty Gorogn, Arch Devil, Magic Element, Dread Knight or Titan from H3 at any given moment

Quote:
BUT NOOOO HoMM 3 fans who cant get over the game cant accept modern approach of visuals
yes, I can't accept them. I like 3D in Fifa games, in Torchlight games, and in NeedForSpeed games, not in HoMM

Quote:
Maybe the community is what keeps the series back and not the develoers
it's not the community that keeps the series back. It's the lack of interest in this game by developers. Put 10 million dollars into my bank account today, and by the end of the year I will have have finished the game I've been having in mind for a few years now, and by the end of 2025 everyone will play the best Heroes-like game EVER (or even the best HoMM game ever if I manage to purchase the license from Ubi with some of the 10 million bucks).

I have so many innovative ideas, and so many concepts and ideas in general that I can literally make the best mythology-based TBS game in history. I just need the money to pay the programmers and designers. All of my amazing ideas sit in several excel and .txt files in my dropbox account cause I have no money to bring them to life.

Anyway, the point is that it's not the community that keeps the series back, but the lack of interest from developers. Might also be that this game genre is slowly dying, who knows...
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted June 21, 2020 05:04 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 17:04, 21 Jun 2020.

Simply put, regarding 3D graphics, King's Bounty had the same battles and many similar units like H3 and hit the jackpot with its graphic's style.
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