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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 02, 2006 02:55 PM |
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Quote:
and have found that it really is a heroes III graphics mod with serious balance issues. And that, alas, is not better then heroes IV, and that is very dissapointing.
Don't spring initiative on me as a cool new concept. I've played the game through and through (serious fan here folks), and the only thing initiative did to the game is make archers more deadly and groundpounders more of a waste of time. You meen if I haste (1st lvl spell i think) my skelleton archers (1st lvl creature, but works with almost any archer) i get to deal not one tousand damage but two? Divided between two stacks if I want? Yeah, that did wonders for strategy, let me tell you... (not saying it's bad inherently, but withoust simultaneous retaliation, line of sight and damage decreesing luck, or something new, it too broken for most towns)
well, sorry to burst your bubble, but... you have been hammering the same things over and over again, and sorry to tell you, but just because you say things a lot, and say them as if they were the Truth, doesn't make it the Truth.
you seem to make a definite judgment over a game released less than 3 weeks ago. that's necessarily a mistake. no matter how confident you sound =)
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Shhejtan
Hired Hero
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posted June 02, 2006 03:42 PM |
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Gimmie an argumen against what I say. All I want. A logical, objective, honest, unbiased argument against my debasment of heroes III/V. Either thet or say the following: I'm on the winning side of the triumph of stupidity over common sense. Or say nothing at all.
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wulfe
Hired Hero
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posted June 02, 2006 03:51 PM |
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Too much info on screen?
Sometimes after a combat, particulary when you gain a large number of recources it is hard to see what is added. For example when you play a necro and take down a vault, you get some recources, extra skeletons, some gold and maybe some spells/artefacts, but when it scrolls over the screen it is often hard to see what you get. Is this me or have other people had probelms with this too?
____________
Everybody belongs to the world and the world belongs to everybody
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Exiled
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 02, 2006 04:15 PM |
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-No random map generator, already bored from the "masses" of maps
-Small battlefield
-Still present useless creatures not worth even spending excess gold on them
-Still presend useless hero specialities
-Snow-borned Tower dumped into the sands
-Neutral creeps reduced
-Thje favourite primary skills for each faction are too severy - 1 DO want a point of Defence instead of having 25 Knowledge
-Boring campaigns, prefer to play custom instead,the game has almost no cathing storyline at all
-The game is too simplified, we Heroes fans should be all smart, we don't need to see how much creatures our stack will kill, we have to figure it out on our own
-Number of spells dramatically reduced, I want my useless Scuttle boat back
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Cabranth
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 02, 2006 04:48 PM |
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Hello.
To wulfe: Yes, totally!
This was especially bad in the Necromancer campaign for me, since I had the Eternal Servitude ability. This meant up to four or five after-combat results were "mashed" together with no way to examine them individually. Sometimes I had to just guess.
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 02, 2006 05:24 PM |
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Quote:
Gimmie an argumen against what I say. All I want. A logical, objective, honest, unbiased argument against my debasment of heroes III/V.
Give me an argument for what you say. All i want. A logical, objective, honest, unbiased argument for your debasment of heroes III/V.
Quote:
Either thet or say the following: I'm on the winning side of the triumph of stupidity over common sense. Or say nothing at all.
- the only person i can see whining here is you. You are whining HV is not HIV.
- you have been overly aggressive and insulting in your posts, please refrain from it or i will be forced to contact an admin. Webforums are not places where you can insult whoever you want because you're behind a screen. Behave and the discussion will be much more friendly.
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Shhejtan
Hired Hero
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posted June 02, 2006 05:59 PM |
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I have been debasing Heroes III/V rather objectivly for a couple of pages now, and elaborating whenever a misconception about my aguments occured. My posts are a bit long, but they are all sensible (if a bit too direc). do read them if you want my arguments so I don't have to repeat myself yet again.
And concerning my rudeness... Since I've given about ten or so posts of arguments why Heroes V is far from being as good as it should've been (as a successor ot Heroes IV, which is, like it or not, a part of this series), and nobody gave any defense of Heroes V worth mentioning (personal taste and nostalgia matters little to me), I have to conclude that there might be no objective arguments in favor of Heroes V (to counterbalance the issues I have adressed). Therefore a pro-Heroes V case would be based on personal taste or whim only and as such open to criticism, and such critisism can only be aimed at the person giving a pro-Heroes V case (because his arguments can only be personal). That's why I'd like to hear an objective argument of why was Heroes IV so lousy that everything from it had to be eradicated.
Since I dislike being sold something suboptimal or retro just for the sake of being retro, after I'm used to the top of the line product (which both heroes III and IV were at their time, as I stated before), I can't feel dissapointed that the designers "burned the library of Alexandria" in favor of "just the Koran", and am furthermore dissapointed that so many folks are cheering around the bonefire admiring the Koran's new fancy binding.
Now, I read the Koran back when it was written, and it was great. But I hit the Library later and found that it was full of so much more greatness. So why, instead of adding the Koran to the library, people had to burn the library down, and then give no explanation for it besides their favourite verses of the Koran. Should I call that smart? Should I recpect that? Or should I post in the "dissapointment's" thread?
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Silverhawk5504
Hired Hero
The Forsaken One
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posted June 02, 2006 06:05 PM |
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I don't think that Shhejtan is necessarily being insnowing...
partly that's because I think he feels very strongly about his opinion
and wants to share these feelings...
I think i'm sympathetic because my posts sound a lot like his...
especially on the topic of how much I hate Fortress and Stronghold
and don't want them to be in an expansion.
Although I really don't agree with his opinions and personally
HATED H4 ... I am still understanding of his arguments...
Forums can be friendly, nice, and nieve, but you really get into the meat of an argument and get at relevent information when there's fire
and intensity among the people debating.
So please quit being a little b@#* and complaining...going to the
admin is a really low move ... try to suck it up and not be a wuss!
Shhejtan - more power to you ... even though you're horribly wrong ... H4 sucked the big 1 ... graphics and unit wise. I hated multiple heroes in 1 army and how castle seige was done. Also, the sideways view was annoying.
I had absolutely no interest in playing the game after the awesomeness of H3 ... H5 is an improvement ... slightly ... because I do enjoy the initiative portion. Nonetheless,
-AI suxxx
-too few spells (a couple that are way too freakin powerful)
-factions are un-balanced
-only good ultimate skill is Urgash's call (all others blow big time)
-hard to see terain
-did I mention that AI SUCKS!!!
Also, a lot more reasons which I can't think of...but mentioned above .. QUIT complaining about too few maps ... its coming in the patch!
Unbelievable how impatient ppl are!
PS: for all the time spent on graphic design ... the graphics suck compared to other games ... cinematics leave much to be desired ...
Looks like the developers spent 85% of time getting baked ... the other 15% they're like ... "oh man, I guess we should just like, uh, probably make the game"
.....and as a result, we've got a bunch a game that leaves much to be desired.
-I'm not totally negative, just pissed at ppl that can't take an argument like a man ... (grow up)
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~Dima
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OOPMan
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 02, 2006 06:08 PM |
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Edited by OOPMan at 18:14, 02 Jun 2006.
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Each to his own.
For me Heroes V is great precisely because it is pretty much just H3 with fancy-pants graphics :-)
I bought an H4 pack a while back, which consisted of H4 and all of its expansions and to be honest the game didn't impress me. I liked the fact that they had made an attempt at introducing new ideas, but I was mostly disappointed by their implementation.
To me, most of the changes in H4 seemed to be poorly implemented copies of ideas that were well-executed in competing TBS games (Such as the truly glorious Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic [Yes, I know, SM was released later, but it was still a glorious game and I have no problems with applying retroactive quality control])...
But each to his own. If you really don't like H5, then no one's stopping you from going back to H4. Similarly, no one's forcing me to play H4, and I'm not :-)
On the subject of other peoeple's posts, I have noticed a couple of people complaining about the lack of caravans, H3-style Expert Town Portal and the like. I was also kinda peeved at this initially, but I'm not so mad about it now. To be honest, the H3 style Town Portal was unbalanced. The same is pretty much true of the H3 style Dimension Door. I'm finding myself happier now that they've cut these spells down and forced one to think a bit more about wandering off into the outback without an army. Summon creatures will only take you so far, after all...
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darkeye
Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
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posted June 02, 2006 06:21 PM |
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Why on earth is there not a button for wait, like for defend during combat? Wait-option is the one most used I'll presume, but you have to wait or push "W" to do so, while the defend order ha it's own biig button.
Another thing is the buggy way the screen scrolls when you use the mouse, slow and bumpy 
You have to use the arrowbuttons to get a smooth and quick scroll, but then as long as you are right handed, you have to switch between the mouse and the keybord or sit with your hands crossed to use it.
Why couldn't the keybord be customized?!!!!!
Using "WASD" as arrow keys for instance.
Darkeye
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 02, 2006 06:22 PM |
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Edited by Gus at 18:23, 02 Jun 2006.
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Quote:
Since I've given about ten or so posts of arguments why Heroes V is far from being as good as it should've been (as a successor ot Heroes IV, which is, like it or not, a part of this series), and nobody gave any defense of Heroes V worth mentioning (personal taste and nostalgia matters little to me), I have to conclude that there might be no objective arguments in favor of Heroes V (to counterbalance the issues I have adressed). Therefore a pro-Heroes V case would be based on personal taste or whim only and as such open to criticism, and such critisism can only be aimed at the person giving a pro-Heroes V case (because his arguments can only be personal). That's why I'd like to hear an objective argument of why was Heroes IV so lousy that everything from it had to be eradicated.
well, that's why i'm gonna stop discussing with you, and you will likely not get anyone to discuss with you: because whatever one says, you will say "my stuff is objective, yours is nostalgia, case closed, therefore i'm right".
not interesting, so thanks, but no thanks =)
Quote:
So please quit being a little b@#* and complaining...going to the
admin is a really low move ... try to suck it up and not be a wuss!
-I'm not totally negative, just pissed at ppl that can't take an argument like a man ... (grow up)
i'm not here to be insulted. i'm sad you can't write stuff or back up arguments without being rude, but i won't accept that, sorry.
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Iris
Responsible
Supreme Hero
of Typos
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posted June 02, 2006 06:24 PM |
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What was the last game that 3DO made before they went bankrupt? Oh yeah... Heroes IV...
Seriously now, Shhejtan, you say personal taste doesn't matter to you. But aren't a lot of your arguements based on personal taste? What you like is your preference. You can easily find people who agree with you and disagree with you. From this perspective, aren't your arguments empty, just as every other opinion in this thread?
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rojodiablo
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 02, 2006 06:25 PM |
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Maps
I'm going to have to say it was the lack of random map generator/random maps/scenarios for you to play solo or multiplayer.
Also I know it was a bit of a rush to get it all done and out on time due to the revamp/reworking, but I really REALLY hope that the first patch gives us a LOT of spelling/grammar/language updates. Its pedantic, I know, but in one or two cases I don't understand what a building/power/ability does because the explanation is garbled.
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Shhejtan
Hired Hero
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posted June 02, 2006 06:34 PM |
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Silverhawk5504 and OOPMan - your posts are honorable. 
I will admit that I have learned more about Heroes IV in a single all night multiplayer then in all single player maps/campaigns alltogether.
The AI in Heroes IV sucks so much more then in Heroes III/V (that would make a fascinating thread, i believe). The game requires more adapting, planing and tactics then the AI can do without being, well, sentinent, i guess. And I'm aware that the colourfullness of the map was the thing everybody hated after the awesome Heroes III graphics. But I still play Kings Bounty from time to time, and I fell in love with Heroes I back when it was new, even though the graphics were dorky.
So, next time sombody likes something because of his own personal factors, don't try to justify it. Either say that you can't (honorable), or don't say anything and go post in a thread for people who don't have such complaints (honorable as well) and allow the critics to do their dissecting where they won't provoke others. Or think long and hard, and find reasons to love something because you know why it is good, not because you feel it is good, so we can exchange arguments like honorable people 
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 02, 2006 06:37 PM |
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and saying "HIV was strategically better" is of course completely objective and honourable.
of course.
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rojodiablo
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 02, 2006 06:41 PM |
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Went back and read this thread AFTER making my post with my thoughts. Big mistake.
This thread has turned into a bit of a mud-slinging match. There's no point in naming and shaming because we can all go back and read the thread. Why don't we just agree to disagree, because people are ALWAYS going to have different opinions, and that is just what you're throwing at each other.
You can yell "Heroes III is teh best!" and "Heroes IV pwnz joo" at each other 'til you're purple in the face, but all you'll get is a reputation as a person with rage issues and/or minus red stars from a mod for going off topic/descending into a slagging match.
Please just let it lie if you can.
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 02, 2006 06:42 PM |
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ah, but i'm not yelling that whatever HoMM is the best. I'm just pointing out that the discussion that Sheejtan is pretending he wants, is flawed from the start, because he rejects a priori arguments that could contradict him.
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okiesolidarity
Known Hero
right brain/left brain wizard
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posted June 02, 2006 07:11 PM |
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Quote:
How does the ability to spot unlogical, unprogressive and dogmatic behavior make one a fanatic? I can tell an elf from a human, but that doesn't make me an elf...
The word is illogical; Nonprogressive is the preferred form (though I will grant you that some folks still use unprogressive...its use is pretty nonprogressive ). If you can find me this dogmatic behavior of which you speak, I'll take a closer look at it and see if you are using that word correctly. The analogy is pretty weak. These are just personal notes, however.
I think most people's negative reactions to your tone stem from the fact that you treat yourself as a completely objective source of information, without accepting that your opinions, while based on a few factual truths, are not as objective as you suggest . To summarize, you kinda come off as a self-righteous a**hole (I'm sure you are much nicer in a one-on-one conversation that is not about video games).
Quote:
Have you tried playing Inferno against Academy in multiplayer? Inferno is all about having more troops then the enemy (gating, agressive stance, low defense, only one decent shooter), but, wouldn't you know it, the Daemon Lord has pitiful knowledge (much needed to transport hordes of creatures which he desperately needs). Wizard on the other hand could/should be considered a magic hero, since he's got the most spell points, and, well, he is a wizard, a caster of spells by definition. How come then, every time the Daemon and the wizard meet, the wizard has more troops then the Daemon? Because of that practical little summoning spell which gives magic heroes armies, and makes might heroes struggle way to hard to get it.
Good point. Personally, I have not noticed this to be as much of a problem, as my daemon's have always had a sufficient amount of knowledge to summon a goodly amount of troops, supplanted by other means of replenishing their mana. It seems as though it's been a larger problem for you. I have no response to that.
Quote:
More on the same topic: If you take an enemy city you still have to trek back to your city because it's no longer the closest one, you need a level 10 hero plus a level 3 mage guild to even begin, so if you are playing a melee orientated town (inferno, dungeon(?)) you have to jog back and forth in the early game and lose turns (and it also means the towns with early archers get a bonus since they rarely lose anything early, if ever), you can't collect resources with troops (waste of movement) and so forth...
I treated this as an incentive to build up a newly captured town more quickly, so that I could replenish my mana there, and summon troops from that location. If you like walking all the way back to your first town, I am not going to stop you. I've noticed that it doesn't take a great deal of effort to build up these newly captured towns, as your opponent generally builds up his/her town fairly well before you get there. Towns with early archers lose less troops, yes. Gating is also a fantastic ability to ensure the loss of less troops in early-game.
Quote:
I'd say that removing that option (in heroes IV nobody made you move the units, you could've played the traditional way, nobody stopped you) is a serious dissapointment in Heroes V.
In heroes3, nobody said you had to chain a lot of heroes together to transport armies. In heroes5, nobody is saying that you have to summon creatures to your army. These are all pretty silly arguments, yeah?
Quote:
Quote:
the mass chaining that existed in heroes3 will be harder to apply to heroes5, as recruiting additional heroes costs more money (each additional hero costs more than the previous), and there aren't the additional one-time gold boosting dwellings (naga banks, dwarven treasury, imp cache, etc) that existed in heroes3.
You'll still need extra heroes for the weekly creatures and resources, since apparently only Heroes are capable of collecting them (you need a PHD or something for that I guess). And there are one-time gold boosting dwellings in Heroes V. Play the campaigns, you'll see.
I do find it odd for as much as you criticize others for not carefully reading your comments, you have not carefully read mine. I stated that the gold-boosting dwellings in 3 no longer exist. There are some new ones, yes, but the overall amount of extra money that can be obtained by heroes by traversing the the map has been significantly decreased. Also, when I refer to mass-chaining, I am talking about the annoying strategy in Heroes3 of chaining up the maximum (8) heroes in a line to transport an army across the better part of a map in one turn. This is much less beneficial of a strategy in Heroes5. Maybe you should carefully read the title of the game, too. It is called "Heroes of Might and Magic", not "Wandering Armies of Might and Magic". I am sorry that you are sore about the fact that most people prefer Heroes3 to Heroes4, and as a result, Heroes5 was taken into a direction that was more similar to Heroes3.
Quote:
Well, if Heroes V "was heroes IV", i'd be complaining because of the lack of progress. It's a thread for dissapointments about Heroes V. Well, as you can see, I have plenty. Since Heroes IV mad me realize that all Heroes games before it were cute little games for idle children (compared to it, that is), i'm very dissapointed that the "it's not in the Koran" mentality led to several marvelous new concepts be left out, probably forever (unless enough people start complaining). My arguments are ussualy logic, very rarely nostalgia, I hope you will understand. I wasn't looking for a full 3d copy of Heroes IV (or anything for thet matter). Heroes IV could've been better. Heroes V should've been better.
"my arguments are ussualy logic"
ok
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Silverhawk5504
Hired Hero
The Forsaken One
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posted June 02, 2006 07:41 PM |
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Ok, ok...
a bit too much reference to the Koran is made ... let's stay away from religious fanaticism.
This chain idea is very intriguing...I never thought about it...also I hadn't noticed that hero costs increase proportionally to the amount of heroes that you hire...that's pretty cool.
The inferno also, isn't as weak as some people would make it. The reasoning here is that it doesn't lose troops...
When you have to clear neutrals off the map, you create a virtual baricade out of your gated units and don't take any casualties.
The power of inferno is quite great, while I think Academy severly lacks power...unless you have extremely powerful spells (which you can't do without a high mage guild, which you can't do wihtout resources), the faction is weak.
Although I am a H3 fanatic, I had never bothered to read any forums or discuss any strategies, so now getting into the H5 forums, I get to see all these things that I never thought about...even though i've played all the H3 maps enough to memorize them
I think the H4 comments were intelligent, and the language was eloquent, which is quite respectable. I believe his opinions were more factual and less opinionated then other's justifications why H5 is so good.
Also, it must be understood that this forum is about the negative attributes of the H5 game, not about why ppl should defend it. PPl should stop ragging on this guy (although I think he's sooooo wrong ... hehehehe).
PS: Necros are still unstoppable ... in your face, Haven lovers!
____________
~Dima
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Iris
Responsible
Supreme Hero
of Typos
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posted June 02, 2006 07:48 PM |
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So back on topic, yeah?
I'm slightly disappointed that a Necromancer can learn Leadership. Lame. You can get good abilities from it (like Herald of Death), but the skill itself is completely useless. They should have made it "Decrease enemy Morale by 1, 2, 3."
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