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am8032
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 17, 2006 02:25 AM |
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IMHO
I also miss the dropped features of HoMM4 - the lone hero taking on a huge army and kicking butt was awesome (can you tell I own all the Terminator movies?) 
I think the game developers just threw on a bright new package on HoMM3 instead of attempting to truly better the game - after all graphics are all the rage now days - I for one find the graphics of Heroes5 are a bit overwhelming visually.
I get the same feeling from the limited number of spells, hero starting skills and maps available - lets relase quickly and get paid.
I would have liked to see sort of a mix between Heroes3 and 4 in this new version, for example:
Heroes only armies too powerful? Limit stacking to 2 heroes only.
Armies moving without heroes? Sure, but only for transport. An army fighting without a general could have -5 morale - fighting without a leader is a historically proven handicap.
Why should we lose all this functionality???
With a little thought the same balance could be brought into the skill tree, available spells, towns/factions, etc.
Instead we have seen a very interesting approach discarded altogether.
I am afraid that the game developers put more thought into making a quick buck with a popular brand name that they acquired instead of making a thought-out new version of the game that blends the best features of the previous releases.
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Fluff_Banquet
Tavern Dweller
Assassin of spare time
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posted July 17, 2006 06:31 PM |
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My guess is that the marketing drones @ Nival (or a hired company) did their research and found out that most people hated heroes 4 and subsequently heroes 3, the fave, was re-released... with a facelift. Either that or the programmers themselves got hard over heroes 3. Nothing wrong with that. I reckon part III was the best overall out of the previous 4 instalments of this wonderful franchise. Though I see what seems to be many people's major gripe: part V doesn't really further the game in any appreciable way, rather it just polishes a very cool original concept. Okay so it does more than that but tinkering cautiously at most so they don't get a violent reaction like 3do did with their last effort. Remember, these poor dudes have big shoes to fill and a very critical fanbase to appease.
Though I wasn't a fan of IV, it did offer some cool new additions and was the black sheep of the heroes family due to it straying too far from the previous 3. What can you do, you change the game too much people whine. You change it too little people whine. I guess that's what happens when something so close to people's hearts is expanded upon... or the lack thereof.
Overall, I quite like heroes 5 so far. Reading some of the posts on this site alone I see a lot of number-crunching digital warriors with mathematics doctorates eager to flop out their spreadsheets and do point-by-point analyses of proposed tactics, or argue incessantly over this castle vs that castle and their associated forces. Lol, goes to show you how in-depth the game is and why it has such a hardcore and devoted following. Even with all its perceived flaws (personally I see very few) a game would not have so many people ardently sharing their thoughts with one another if it was a piece of $hit.
I'll tell you one thing though, either I am not as cerebrally developed as a lot of folks on this site or I just don't thrash the game as hard as some, but I have found part 5 the most difficult to beat the f%$#ing comp. Out of roughly 8 non-campaign games started, I have won 2! Yipes! I have been at it since heroes 2, so I have more than a passing familiarity with the general concept behind winning the game. I used to trounce the comp in part 3, but no more. The computer always seems to have more units than me, even though I play ultra-conservatively, rarely losing more than a few units in any given battle (non-siege of course). As soon as I do battle with one of the comp's major armies and kick its a$$, another horde of hero-lead critters comes spewing out of the underground to gradually whittle away my forces... this repeats until I am left with a pale shade of what was once a mighty army headed by a battle-hardened hero. Then come all the little weeny heros specifically hired to just steal all my mines and then its all over... I have been bled dry. I just can't compete, even if i adopt the comps tactics. Must be getting rusty in my old age.
Anyway, it's a great game and promises buckets more hours of fun, especially when it has been tweaked a little more.
WELL DONE NIVAL!
____________
Opinions are like a$$holes:
Everyone's got one & they all stink.
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maltz
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 17, 2006 08:27 PM |
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Edited by maltz at 20:27, 17 Jul 2006.
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H4 was my 1st HoMM game. H5 is my 2nd. Everything about H5 seems to be fine, except that it has dropped its difficulty.
On the "hardest (forgot what it was called)" setting of H4, there were a few fights that I would literally jump from the chair when I beat it. For example, Might Campaign Mission 1, the pirate fight. I really had to split the beserkers, and make smart move of my hero and remaining army. To take the first town in Academy Campaign Mission 1 is also very difficult. The entire elf campaign I had to solo with my hero, because my army die way too fast. But I still pulled through with an endless stream of elementals/phenoix... To beat the game on the hardest difficulty really means something.
Making the Hero participate on the battlefield adds a lot of juice to tactics. Sometimes you position them right to absorb some damage, and sometimes you have to protect them with other troops. I recall in my H4 Chaos campaign, my solo heroine was a walking disaster. She could solo a lot of dragons with the vampire ability.
Unlike now. H5's hardest difficulty is really nothing. I don't have that excitement anymore. My only joys comes from winning a battle without any loss -- you can imagine how easy it has become.
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted July 17, 2006 10:47 PM |
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Edited by csarmi at 23:14, 17 Jul 2006.
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Quote:
Disappointing features:
- No heroes in combat
That was a retarded idea IMO and I'm very happy that it disappeared. You like to travel with a grave 75% of the time? Or never use your spells bcuz you are eliminated by a band of devils in the first turn without a chance to do a thing?
That you have no idea how to play heroes IV shows just fine with this post. But what does it have to do with the topic?
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Did you like losing melee creatures every fight bcuz of the "simultaneous reatl thing"?
Complete lack of knowledge of h4 play again.
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Thank God they introduced that. Reaching grandmaster in anything in h4 was impossible in most maps, who cares for skills you can't get?
Now this is beyond any limits. Have you ever played h4?!
Now some clarifications.
1) H4 is called Heroes of Might and Magic 4. That means you have to use heroes (not one hero!) and both migh and magic heroes, and yes, mixed in one army.
2) Immortality potions, Resurrection (angels, raise dead), Divine Intervention, combat skills. Devils are great hero killers, yes. First you have to cancel immo, then hit. Devils have higher initiative than heroes (tactics!) plus morale. Good luck!
3) The game is to kill the opposing heroes by your creatures. Usually 3-4-5 heroes and the rest filled with hih level stacks in endfights.
4) Heroes can be protected, creatures too. You DON'T have to lose melee troops if you don't want to. First strike, wait and hit twice, take retal (by hero if you want to), flexible hero management, numbers, summoning... plus, your level 1-2 troops are almost always expendable. You won't take them into the endfight anyways, so just lose them to neutrals who cares. Normal endfight army is something like: GM life caster, GM nature caster, GM pathfinder (support spells), GM tactician (support spells), GM fighter (support spells, expert order), 5 mantises, 8 phoenixes...
5) You usually get 3-4 GM heroes on larger maps. GM magic is usually reached by level 12, Gm tactics level 8, GM pathfinding level 8, GM combat level 5...
On smaller maps you probably only get master level by your several heroes. But that's very rare. Oh and btw you do NOT need luck to get GM fast. You just pick your skills wisely. It's easy. Until you don't have GM, you do NOT take any other schools.
6) Heroes 4 is about hero specialization. Pathfinder, tactician, casters, fighters.. and btw those superbarbs are easy kills.
7) Lots of strategies. Shall I go with divine + paladins? Shall I go order or nature path with life? Which kind of heroes will I build? Do I focus on Mass Fervor instead? Who will do the dispels? What will my support heroes cast (fighters/pathfinders/tacticians)... etc
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Yes, I play the game only on the forums.
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Fuzzier
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 18, 2006 07:19 AM |
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Oh, NO! We are talking about H5!
H4 was a failure, no matter you admit it or not.
Ranged attack cannot aim a troop behind another --- what a joke.
A troop of many GM heroes can easily ruin the game, because it's quite imbalanced --- heroes are commanders, not some big crazing drug-taking footman.
A troop can exist without a commander(hero) is quite stupid --- indeed you act like a God giving them commands directly no matter how far away they're.
Simultaneous-retaliation breaks the rule of turn-based games --- everything is turn-based, except for retaliation, this makes the game very strange and stupid. But for me, it doesn't matter, the game will do equally well.
Fog of war just makes you send level1 troops everywhere --- annoying.
Caravan is a weak version of Town Portal, and can be employed when Town Portal is absent.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 18, 2006 08:08 AM |
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Quote:
Now this is beyond any limits. Have you ever played h4?!
yeah. Not much, but I did. Maybe my statements aren't fully correct, but not everyone is a great h4 player like you, who never loses his heroes (lol) and gets 3-4 grandmasteries (rotfl) ~~
Maybe we played a different map. I played medium one, destroyed almost every possible creep and visited almost every possible place, and ended with not even ONE fully completed GM tree. Yes, I had some GM skills (it was combat and melee, if i remember correct), but the rest was.. hmm.. lower -_- and other skills were almost untouched because the lack of the levels.
Do we play a different game?
Another example. My high level barb engaged an enemy with ~60 water elementals (not too hard to get.) and got killed with ONE ice bolt even despite the resistance (it was advanced or expert i think). Explain me that, please. And don't tell me you've got GM resistance on every mage hero you get. O_o
well, regards. 
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hellwitch
Known Hero
Skeleton Ruler
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posted July 19, 2006 01:42 PM |
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 The AI can't be very good in all kind of heroes games(turn based strategy) because they are not so simple like chess and calculation are not very usefull for the AI. That why the AI have basic strateries witch a player can learn and can make counteractions.
The very best of Homm games is the multiplayer mode when you have real thinking enemy. The single player mode is only for learning and take fun with the campaigns.
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dfortae
Known Hero
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posted July 19, 2006 02:19 PM |
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Quote:
The AI can't be very good in all kind of heroes games(turn based strategy) because they are not so simple like chess and calculation are not very usefull for the AI. That why the AI have basic strateries witch a player can learn and can make counteractions.
The very best of Homm games is the multiplayer mode when you have real thinking enemy. The single player mode is only for learning and take fun with the campaigns.
While it is very difficult to implement good AI (I'm a game designer/developer myself), it can be improved.
Also, chess is about the most complicated type of game you can have. It's MUCH more complicated than Heroes of Might and Magic 5 or any other version. The restricted angles of movement, the length of certain pieces being able to move, predicting 10 steps into the future what someone will do, etc. Heroes is 'Attack, Move (any direction), Wait, Cast, or Defend'. You pretty much KNOW what a person is going to do with each unit. Usually attack/move. Casters will ususally cast until out of mana. VERY EASY TO PREDICT. Also, chess has MANY MANY more pieces on the 'board'. This is what increases the complexity MUCH more than Heroes.
Basically, the bottom line is the AI is pretty poor and can be drastically improved. But, I have my doubts this will be done. Once a complicated algorithm is in place for things such as AI, it's VERY VERY difficult to "enhance" it in useful ways. This doesn't mean it CAN'T be done, it's just unlikely the company will spend alot of time doing this when they could spend their time on other things. Remember, any time type spend "maintaining" their game, they're LOOSING money. They COULD be making MORE money by making new games or working on "expansions". People won't avoid buying Heroes 5 just because a few people on an internet forum complain about AI. Therefore, it's a low priority for the company to enhance most likely.
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hellwitch
Known Hero
Skeleton Ruler
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posted July 19, 2006 03:55 PM |
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I can't agree that chess is more complicated. Especially when we have quite good chess AI already made. Compared with Homm the base variable are at least x1000 more against the chess. Well up here you try to put Homm in very simle model which can realy turn thing around but if we care about all of the vars that can be changed in Homm - chess loose for sure.
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dfortae
Known Hero
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posted July 19, 2006 04:18 PM |
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Quote:
I can't agree that chess is more complicated. Especially when we have quite good chess AI already made. Compared with Homm the base variable are at least x1000 more against the chess. Well up here you try to put Homm in very simle model which can realy turn thing around but if we care about all of the vars that can be changed in Homm - chess loose for sure.
Well let me put it to you this way. Have you ever tried to program a chess game vs the AI for a game like Heroes 5? Obviously you haven't or you would have discovered chess is MUCH MUCH more difficult. Chess has been around 1000+ years. It takes a lifetime to even TRY to master chess (and most fail). Most can master the combat in Heroes 5 in less than a single year. Unless you've actually tried developing the real algorithms to BEAT people, you have no idea how hard it is to develop good AI.
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Snap
Hired Hero
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posted July 19, 2006 04:59 PM |
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Games like these are written by amateurs who don't know much about AI and couldn't program even the simplest chess computer.
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Haldowan
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 19, 2006 05:20 PM |
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Edited by Haldowan at 18:01, 20 Jul 2006.
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Quote:
While it is very difficult to implement good AI (I'm a game designer/developer myself), it can be improved.
Also, chess is about the most complicated type of game you can have. It's MUCH more complicated than Heroes of Might and Magic 5 or any other version. The restricted angles of movement, the length of certain pieces being able to move, predicting 10 steps into the future what someone will do, etc. Heroes is 'Attack, Move (any direction), Wait, Cast, or Defend'. You pretty much KNOW what a person is going to do with each unit. Usually attack/move. Casters will ususally cast until out of mana. VERY EASY TO PREDICT. Also, chess has MANY MANY more pieces on the 'board'. This is what increases the complexity MUCH more than Heroes.
Basically, the bottom line is the AI is pretty poor and can be drastically improved. But, I have my doubts this will be done. Once a complicated algorithm is in place for things such as AI, it's VERY VERY difficult to "enhance" it in useful ways. This doesn't mean it CAN'T be done, it's just unlikely the company will spend alot of time doing this when they could spend their time on other things. Remember, any time type spend "maintaining" their game, they're LOOSING money. They COULD be making MORE money by making new games or working on "expansions". People won't avoid buying Heroes 5 just because a few people on an internet forum complain about AI. Therefore, it's a low priority for the company to enhance most likely.
Intro
°°°°°
I doubt this. Chess may be a lot more simple because the rules of game are well know. More, many many chess calcutors exists at the moment and you don't have to think about the game to develop a chess game.
In heroes, they have to improve both tactic (micro-management during combat) and strategy (macro-management, ressources gathering and army movement).
Micro
°°°°°
In chess, basically you play to gain material because it is the easiest way to attack a well protected king. That's for beginners I know but it is part of the game to do forks, pins, etc... to gain material.
In Heroes you must blast your opponent. Actually the problem is mostly a "target priority list" (phantomatic forces). The computer is not able to evaluate the real threat of 2-3 summoned units. The spellbook is not used properly (teleport next to ranged units). In chess you know where is your opponent and you can't attack him on the first turn. In Heroes if you don't have a good starting position you will lose tempo (sound like chess huh ?) to correct it.
In Heroes like in chess you need a good strategy for the battle too. You can sacrifice your queen in chess to win the game. You can also do this in Heroes with a bait because you know the hero will do a aoe spell in that zone and win the game.
In chess you move one piece and your turn is over. There is no randomness in the result of your action. In Heroes you have a to deal with damage range, moral, luck. The action bar is not fixed you have to think about what the position will be in the next few turns. It is not like you can predict the result of the next action with 100% accuracy.
Macro
°°°°°
I played in heroic today and I was in vey bad shape. My hero is out during the first month. It is a 8 player map and one computer is coming onto my main town. I can not go back in time and my army is not good enough to win the battle. What did I do ? I go in fight, lose some units and flee. Now I am back in town and I can take all my units with me. One turn later the computer is in front of the town. I have three heroes and I can't lose any. So I go out and with meticulous preparation I won the next battle.
This is not to a "what-a-genius-I-am-story", it is a image of what the human spirit is able to do. Adapt to a new situation. A computer can not do this but it can learn the trick. You must know the fact that chess in the XXe century is not like chess in the XIXe century, do you ? The rules didn't change but the knowledge of the game is better now (computers may be the main cause of it). Nowadays you have opening books and computers to teach you chess. It is not the same thing about Heroes. The game is new and the rules are not the same as the previous Heroes games.
Conclusion
°°°°°°°°°°
What the players want I think, is having the same modularity of difficulty that you can have versus a computer player in chess, but without cheating. The AI must be smarter and not buffed in gold/ressources to be more challenging. This is possible with more and more testing. I think the developpers can simply not be good players and see all the possibilities of AI improvement. The computer need to know what to do, it can't think by itself. There is also one thing that could make AI very bad sometimes. You know bugs ? It can be an human error, the algorythm may be good but not the code.
It is true that maybe, they will not improve the AI because of time/money. It is very sad, because I am sure they do not have enough experience with multiplayer to do something like warcraft3. The service offered by battle.net is something who will fit very well to the game in my opinion.
__________
Please somebody tell me if my english is too bad, I'll try to correct it.
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Rune_B
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 20, 2006 03:41 PM |
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Quote:
Basically, the bottom line is the AI is pretty poor and can be drastically improved. But, I have my doubts this will be done. Once a complicated algorithm is in place for things such as AI, it's VERY VERY difficult to "enhance" it in useful ways. This doesn't mean it CAN'T be done, it's just unlikely the company will spend alot of time doing this when they could spend their time on other things. Remember, any time type spend "maintaining" their game, they're LOOSING money. They COULD be making MORE money by making new games or working on "expansions". People won't avoid buying Heroes 5 just because a few people on an internet forum complain about AI. Therefore, it's a low priority for the company to enhance most likely.
Very good thinking!!
Nobody wants to make you happy for free.
If the game is perfect then you sell it for 40 gold  after a long development, with big costs, and that’s it. Small profit.
BUT, If the game is not perfect (lack of maps, editors, creatures, skills, features...you name it - that are deliberately missed), then you sell the original, and you can get another 30+30+30 gold (from the same fans mostly) selling the expansions. Try to sell the complete game for 130 gold!.
It’s called marketing.
... and a forum is a very good place to express for what you want to give more money and, I’m sure somebody from UBI & NIVAL reads this thread very carefully .
I hope that there is nobody here that doubt’s the first expansion will bring probably a new town, with a new campaign, some new maps, some new features – probably the most wanted of them in this forum.
I doubt, though, for economical reasons, that the expected randomly map generator or the campaign/map editor will be present in the first expansion. Probably ...in the last.
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hellwitch
Known Hero
Skeleton Ruler
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posted July 20, 2006 05:11 PM |
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Quote:
Well let me put it to you this way. Have you ever tried to program a chess game vs the AI for a game like Heroes 5? Obviously you haven't or you would have discovered chess is MUCH MUCH more difficult. Chess has been around 1000+ years. It takes a lifetime to even TRY to master chess (and most fail). Most can master the combat in Heroes 5 in less than a single year. Unless you've actually tried developing the real algorithms to BEAT people, you have no idea how hard it is to develop good AI.
But that is what i said. Chess AI have most of the existing calculations(turn options).Thats why Chess games are difficult on PC. But Homm need a lot of more calculations that chess to make the AI realy strong. Thats why the AI in Homm use stored strategies which we can handle much more easy.And thats why Homm AI can't be made with real optimizing calculations - Because Homm need more comlicated calculations vs chess.
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted July 20, 2006 09:41 PM |
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Quote:
yeah. Not much, but I did. Maybe my statements aren't fully correct, but not everyone is a great h4 player like you, who never loses his heroes (lol) and gets 3-4 grandmasteries (rotfl) ~~
I only lose my heroes if I want to. Sometimes it's beneficial to let some die. You can chain the tombstone home and saved a lot of movement.
Quote:
Maybe we played a different map. I played medium one, destroyed almost every possible creep and visited almost every possible place, and ended with not even ONE fully completed GM tree. Yes, I had some GM skills (it was combat and melee, if i remember correct), but the rest was.. hmm.. lower -_- and other skills were almost untouched because the lack of the levels.
One hero should learn only one mastery. You didn't get GM most likely cause you didn't play aim-oriented. Plus you didn't have enough heroes.
For example, you take a priest. He starts with two points in life (you need 15 points total). Library gives you one point. School of secondary magic (dont remember the name, seminary maybe?) can teach you one point on average. Let's say you find a life altar too.
You NEVER learn resurrection or ANY other skill than life until you get to GM. The result is: you have a GM life caster on level 11. Then you can teach him combat skills or whatever auxiliary ones.
Quote:
Do we play a different game?
Yes. It takes some time to learn how to build efficient armies and heroes.
Quote:
Another example. My high level barb engaged an enemy with ~60 water elementals (not too hard to get.) and got killed with ONE ice bolt even despite the resistance (it was advanced or expert i think). Explain me that, please. And don't tell me you've got GM resistance on every mage hero you get. O_o
well, regards.
Ice bolt does a lot of damage. You need to cover your important stacks from the line of sight of the water elementals.
One way is to have a druid cast anti-magic on your front row hero.
Two barbarians... One have GM resist and covers the 2nd which has GM archery.
But the easiest way is the following. Go in with a usual army that has some firepower. Use tight formation and fill the front of stacks of 1 creatures (low level, such as sprites). Water elementals won't shoot, since they seem to have better options. They'll keep casting slow and such on you. You wait till your mana runs dry and it's game over. The same tactics can be used against genies, but you have to be careful (genies will keep casting illusions, so you must not bring troops that can shoot or cross the battlefield fast.
Those 60 water elementals can be defeated by a week 1 preserve army, for example (you need the right spells though).
____________
Yes, I play the game only on the forums.
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chpr
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 24, 2006 10:26 PM |
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ahahhaha, any guy who thinks that homm is more complicated than chess, is a complete idiot (excuse me). Tell this Kasparov, Anand and so on. Maybe some homm tournament champion is more clever than Kasparov or Karpov? Or Fischer? Guys, these people are genius who could predict decades of turns..
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Haldowan
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 24, 2006 11:30 PM |
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Edited by Haldowan at 23:51, 24 Jul 2006.
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Quote:
ahahhaha, any guy who thinks that homm is more complicated than chess, is a complete idiot (excuse me). Tell this Kasparov, Anand and so on. Maybe some homm tournament champion is more clever than Kasparov or Karpov? Or Fischer? Guys, these people are genius who could predict decades of turns..
What can not you understand in "Chess is not about randomness statement ?". All rules are fixed and the games is around for centuries... In Heroes positions aren't fixed at all, results of actions aren't 100% accurate. Spells and abilities aren't even balanced entierely.
It is more easy to make a chess game because of the rules dude ! No place for randomness here, is not that more simple ? And this is why chess champions can predict decades of turns.
What do you think is easier ? Programming a chess calculator by giving it fixed rules and opening books known for centuries, or programming a Heroes AI which rules have just been created ?
Saying HOMM champion is clever than Kasparov, Karpov or Fisher is irrevelant. These champions are working all day long with computers to be the best at their game. You can't tell the same thing about HOMM gamers.
Edit : I will add something about being clever or not. You can be clever at whatever you are giving enough time. Some are clever at maths, chess, programming, painting, even at 13375p34k, because they do spend a lot of time in it. I don't say that they don't have any talent at these things but without hard work do you really think you anyone become a champion ? Never. A is a chess champion and B is a HOMM champion. A beat B at chess and B beat A at HOMM, sounds fair ? Yes.
And the topic is : What is the most dissapointing feature of Heroes V ? AI is one of them and I can tell you that it isn't that easy to implemente a very good AI with all these spells (buffs/curses/aoe), this randomness (battlefield, damage, initiative modification), etc...
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browngm1
Hired Hero
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posted July 24, 2006 11:59 PM |
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why is ubi so disorganized. i could have created a less bugged, better artificial intelligent game in my basement.
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Haldowan
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 25, 2006 12:10 AM |
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It would be better to ask Nival. Maybe teams of programmers, speaking different languages ? I dunno. But you can offer your service, send them an e-mail  .
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dfortae
Known Hero
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posted July 25, 2006 05:09 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
ahahhaha, any guy who thinks that homm is more complicated than chess, is a complete idiot (excuse me). Tell this Kasparov, Anand and so on. Maybe some homm tournament champion is more clever than Kasparov or Karpov? Or Fischer? Guys, these people are genius who could predict decades of turns..
What can not you understand in "Chess is not about randomness statement ?". All rules are fixed and the games is around for centuries... In Heroes positions aren't fixed at all, results of actions aren't 100% accurate. Spells and abilities aren't even balanced entierely.
Ok, the reason why chess is so much more difficult is because one fatal move is SO deadly. In fact, EVERY move is "fatal" in the sense that it will completely determine who the winner is. In HOMM, that's not the case. There is so much "room for error". THAT'S what makes making AI difficult or not. It's not ONLY the combination of factors, is the CRITICALNESS of those factors as well.
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This thread is pages long: 
