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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 08, 2007 12:06 AM |
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Quote:
Who is the best dungeon heroes? (i personally prefer vayshan, sinitar and yrbeth)
Hmm I'd go for Yrwanna(potential mass slow, intelligence). Eruina(perfect start, good special for later) and Sinitar. You can't go wrong with Sinitar as you can make your own choices, Yrwanna will get destructive anyway but also has good mana and possibly a lvl advantage not to mention the extra furies(ok the special won't help much later but it's good) and Eruina has two of the most crucial skills. Easy to get tactics, has lightning bolt, ammo cart helps with neutrals and matriarchs' few shots and a damaging special once she gets a number of them. A pity I have come to favour magic only skills but I won't complain!
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 08, 2007 12:25 AM |
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Quote:
A pity I have come to favour magic only skills but I won't complain!
Thats right, if you want to squeeze max from your spells there is no room for attack skill(unless you are lvl 25 or something)
I find tactics not so useful in creeeping since you kill shooters/casters with scouts only.
Eurina's special isn't so good because most often you want to use area spells and her ability doesn't work with them. Cart isn't any good too because you won't have war machines and it will be destroyed sooner or later. All in all i find Eurina not so good at all.
In my opinion attack skill is poor skill for warlock generally because only real attacking units in their army are dragons and lizards. Whille most of times you wont have dragons you are left with lizards only. Taking 3+ skills for 1 unit only is a bad choice.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 08, 2007 12:29 AM |
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Well tactics may help vs a low init/speed army such as academy and will help clear fast neutrals as wardancers. It is possible to get tactics and then get only magic skills but chances are you will be forced to take more lvls in attack...The special does work with aoe as long as the unit is in the middle tile of it-I have seen it work with meteor shower. In case you also get archery it does some good damage.
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86wyp
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 08, 2007 05:56 AM |
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How does tactics help clear war dancers?
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betruger
Known Hero
empowered mind
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posted April 08, 2007 06:52 AM |
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Quote:
Well tactics may help vs a low init/speed army such as academy
Lol. Surely you don't mean Academy. They have the highest initiative in the late game due to mini-artifacts. Ever seen a titan with initaitive 15? or hasted titan with initaitve 21?
I completly agree with feluniozbunio.
Yrwanna is obviously the best dungeon hero.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 08, 2007 08:51 AM |
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Sometimes wardancer stacks are big for your furies AND spells to kill(3 stacks) so it's essential that you hit first, not wait. Also yes, academy should have arties in a long game but if you attack around week 5 I doubt they'll have used artificer much and it also depends on the map.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 08, 2007 10:03 AM |
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Quote:
Yrwanna is obviously the best dungeon hero.
Not obviously, not for everyone. I find her worthless.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 08, 2007 01:31 PM |
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I think sinitar (easy access to secret of destruction and cheap empowered spells) and vayshan (his assasin and easy access to warlock luck) are better than yrwana, even yrbeth is strong if you have plenty of dark magic.
Quote:
No way. In late game you easily get 1k+ dmg area spells which bypass defense and hits few units. Usually one spell kills whole lvl 7/6 stack(if the game lasts reasonable amount of time). Speaking about potential ive had 3k+ meteor shower few times in my career , try to beat that.
@feluniozbunio: late game or very late game? even 6k implosion never beat BD's breath attack at very late game, at late game BD's breath attack can easily score 3k-5k+ dmg (1500x2 - 2500x2, 5k+ each with luck), and at very late game when you have plenty of powerful artifact, their breath attack easily exceed 15k, even 20k++, add elemental chains dmg to that (2 enemies stack are goner, victory is 100% yours), but if you fight fortress, max dmg they can excedd become 10k-20k++, againts magma, it still 3k-6k, 5k max with fortress arties, but your BD will die, but if you choose to use destructive magic, you'll certainly lose.
It seems that fortress is the best dungeon counter, it's truly dungeon worst nightmare. Fortress also has a very good hero that can keep up to dungeon's fastest powercreeping hero, the one with defender/shield guard specials, he can creep easily just with Lv 1 unit, and he is very good againts destructive user (now i begin to love Arkath's faction, with those damned resurrection and charge rune + light magic, they're near invincible, but dwarves are so slow and almost never get logistic)
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 08, 2007 02:14 PM |
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Quote:
I think sinitar (easy access to secret of destruction and cheap empowered spells) and vayshan (his assasin and easy access to warlock luck) are better than yrwana, even yrbeth is strong if you have plenty of dark magic.
Yes, I feel similiar way. Betruger probably plays different style: the mixed style (part destructive, part might) which most warlocks seem to like. I prefer pure "magic" way: creatures serve little purpose to me. That's why Yrwanna never really helped me much.
Quote:
@feluniozbunio: late game or very late game? even 6k implosion never beat BD's breath attack at very late game, at late game BD's breath attack can easily score 3k-5k+ dmg (1500x2 - 2500x2, 5k+ each with luck), and at very late game when you have plenty of powerful artifact, their breath attack easily exceed 15k, even 20k++, add elemental chains dmg to that (2 enemies stack are goner, victory is 100% yours), but if you fight fortress, max dmg they can excedd become 10k-20k++, againts magma, it still 3k-6k, 5k max with fortress arties, but your BD will die, but if you choose to use destructive magic, you'll certainly lose.
Things aren't that easy, my friend. First of all, warlock does his damage throughout whole combat: The BDs you mention (or even more scary: paladins!) will do it once, then they will get some loses and score much less damage, finally they die to score 0. The average damage for warlock, taking all the combat length into consideration, is higher. And your most damaging stack (paladins, let's say) is clearly the first one to fall to my implosion,so it will score it's damage twice in combat (or even once if my SP is sky-high and I got luck roll).
Quote:
It seems that fortress is the best dungeon counter, it's truly dungeon worst nightmare. Fortress also has a very good hero that can keep up to dungeon's fastest powercreeping hero, the one with defender/shield guard specials, he can creep easily just with Lv 1 unit, and he is very good againts destructive user (now i begin to love Arkath's faction, with those damned resurrection and charge rune + light magic, they're near invincible, but dwarves are so slow and almost never get logistic)
yes, dwarves can be a pain: fortunately, these defenders can do nothing against simple hydra + assassin push with a powerleveled warlock with a bunch of proper skills and spells. Capturing the dwarven town is another thing, due to ridiculous guardpost, but if you can trap his hero in his town and steal his mines, you will win, obviously. And with a proper playstyle, you can do it most of the time.. unless the dwarven player is clearly better than you, but if he is, he'll win with anything, not just dwarves. Skill>all, you know.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 08, 2007 02:36 PM |
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Quote:
Yes, I feel similiar way. Betruger probably plays different style: the mixed style (part destructive, part might) which most warlocks seem to like. I prefer pure "magic" way: creatures serve little purpose to me. That's why Yrwanna never really helped me much.
I play purely magic warlock and use Yrwanna. Her special and additional furies let you kill all high lvl monsters earlier and she needs less mana then other heroes while creeping. These are her good points. Sinitar can be slightly better in endgame thanks to his special but this advantage is not that visible when you take arcane training. Thats why dont want to sacrifice faster start to couple points of mana less per spell. Besides , Yrwanna starts with inteligence which gives her huge amount of mana in end game. Sinitar very often wont be offered inteligence because till you get enlightenment you will have several other skill trees started and chances to get inteligence are very low. She has it for sure which often leads to having much more mana then Sinitar. And bonus from inteligence is much better than Sinitaar's special.
Some people have been talking about warlocks having mana problems. I dont have a game that i have less than 150 mana on week 3/4 when i use Yrwanna and i didnt have SINGLE game that i would be lacking mana, seriously.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 08, 2007 02:48 PM |
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me either: i never have manaproblems: And I use the more "hardcore" sinitar/vayshan! I often reach 150 mana quite fast : O
And if I don't, there are always some nice knowledge arties here and there (in the markets that is  )
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86wyp
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 08, 2007 03:53 PM |
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I use sinitar and yrwanna and found their creeping ability almost equal, except when yrwanna didn't learn destructive in soon. I think they are just like nur and havez in academy, hard to say who is better.
I never tried eruina in end game but I think that the opponent may focus their fire on eruina's SW and that will make her speical less effective. BTW I always built BD but sometimes skip SW, and never have gold problem.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 08, 2007 05:09 PM |
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I remember that you have been saying the same about academy and resources for mini arifacts. Perhaps you play different maps. I have had few times black dragons on Battle For Honor but that's it. And i have never managed to make a couple of lvl 3 mini artifacts ( i saw you mention them many times)
Or perhaps you play longer games. My games last not longer than 5 weeks.
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86wyp
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 08, 2007 05:35 PM |
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Quote:
I remember that you have been saying the same about academy and resources for mini arifacts. Perhaps you play different maps. I have had few times black dragons on Battle For Honor but that's it. And i have never managed to make a couple of lvl 3 mini artifacts ( i saw you mention them many times)
Or perhaps you play longer games. My games last not longer than 5 weeks.
I played a lot on mystics vale and last hope and former friends, and it is possible to make lvl3 miniartis for all creatures or have 5 BDs in 5 weeks (heroic lvl). The only problem is that the game won't last that long.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 08, 2007 05:46 PM |
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Quote:
The only problem is that the game won't last that long.
That's exactly my point. In first few weeks you build all buildings than you must decide wheather you go for dragons or buy some artifacts and upgrade other creatures. I usually buy 2+ artifacts and i am able to get shadow dragons. But very, very rarely i am able to upgrade them and still have money on everything else.Besides i have NEVER built upgrade dwelling for dragons in my life. I always use hill fort . I dont know is it my problem only , but even if i take gold only from chests i still dont have enough money for everything. I know its more expensive to use fort but when i have few dragons its still cheaper than building upgrade ( although i dont build it because of rediculous resources cost).
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86wyp
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 08, 2007 11:24 PM |
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Edited by 86wyp at 23:26, 08 Apr 2007.
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If the game ends in 3 weeks, then there is no reason to build dragon spire. But I love BDs very much. They are more durable than hydras and more deadly than raiders and there is no fear of them getting frenzied or wiped out by wizards' amrageddons. A stack of 5 DEs in a 5 week battle is always the most significant force. So I buy less artifacts(never more than two) to save money. And I think that most artifacts are not worth their prices.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 08, 2007 11:34 PM |
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You're mistaken, 86wyp: Hydras have better survivability than Black Dragons. Check the charts if you don't believe.
Artifacts are an absolute necessity for magic warlock: He depends on SP, +elemental damage and luck so much that those artifacts are totally priceless to him: I'd take emerald slippers over 5 extra black dragons in lategame any time of day (ofc if I had implosion/meteor shower too).
I wish BDs were cheaper. I love them too. They are beautiful in HOMM5.
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Destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted April 09, 2007 12:26 AM |
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I actually have a question here regarding black dragons and the warlocks irresitable magic.
Forgive me if I have not read it closely enough. But if a warlock casts armageddon will his dragons be effected?
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 09, 2007 12:28 AM |
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Yes, everything takes damage, immune or not.
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86wyp
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 09, 2007 01:49 AM |
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Quote:
You're mistaken, 86wyp: Hydras have better survivability than Black Dragons. Check the charts if you don't believe.
Artifacts are an absolute necessity for magic warlock: He depends on SP, +elemental damage and luck so much that those artifacts are totally priceless to him: I'd take emerald slippers over 5 extra black dragons in lategame any time of day (ofc if I had implosion/meteor shower too).
I wish BDs were cheaper. I love them too. They are beautiful in HOMM5.
I would definitly buy slippers or maybe p+2 plate but will not buy dragon talon crown(k+3) if gold is limited. And I still think BD is more durable than hydra becuase it has higher defence.
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