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darkprince
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 10, 2013 09:42 PM |
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zaio-baio said:
I guess they dont consider maps where you can get 25 sp + firecape week 2. Those maps are poorly balanced anyways.
I'm talking about normal/default maps that you can reasonably expect lv10 week 1 and lv15 week 2. With 45% chance increase in sp, warlocks have an expected sp of 10 at lv15. Wizard's reward and Expert Enlightenment will increase your sp to 15. You can always buy some +sp artifacts from your Trade Guild (1000 gold, 5 wood, 5 ore). Even with sp 15, we are talking about 720 damage across the battlefield (without the Phoenix Feather Cape). The chance of your opponent finding magic-resist artifacts is not much bigger than the chance of your finding the Phoenix Feather Cape.
Even if we assume your opponent can neutralize half the damage, we still have a good 360. Do we really expect people to buy 7 stacks of troops with hp all over 360? On average maps, probably not. So focus fire on the stacks with hp over 360 and watch your opponent flee when all of his/her stacks fall below 360. Just watch your mana and don't let it fall below 40 (needed to cast an empowered Armageddon).
Does sp matter? Yes, it does--it makes a life-and-death difference. The worst case would be the one that you end up with tons of attack and very low spellpower/knowledge. Let's hope the warlock's growth to be normal.
Elvin said:
As for week 5 maps, armageddon effectiveness in a final battle is really up to chance. If the opponent delivers a successful charge then armageddon will more or less seal your defeat - especially if he has good initiative with ring of speed or is playing sylvan. But if the armageddon is powerful enough to kill both then you win. You buy your fallen hero, he can't. It's game over.
I agree that for week 5 maps, the battle is all about initiatives. But think this way, the Dungeon troops are pretty much done after opponent's successful initial charge WITHOUT Armageddon (fireball and meteor shower won't save you because the number of stacks hit and output are too small). WITH Armageddon, you introduce chance into the battle and a sure defeat is not your fate anymore (especially if more than two stacks of your opponent rolled on water element or you pulled a warlock luck). Isn't this the critical difference (win vs. lose) Armageddon is making?
Fauch said:
what I understand is that he doesn't rely on armaggeddon to weaken the army, but just fights normally, until all remaining enemy stacks are weak enough to all die in an armaggeddon, bringing a quick and surprising end to the battle.
Precisely.
SKPRIMUS said:
Wonder how many games have REALLY been won with last gasp arma or potential arma?
Players would have really got upset over that one & we would have heard in forums 
First reason why you don't see people posting is probably the limited number of good Dungeon players. Dungeon's MF is not as easy as the other factions and is EXTREMELY time-consuming.
Second, I wonder how many players are calculating on the battle field. The hypothetical Armageddon threat only exists if your opponent is smart enough to calculate and have these concerns. I believe that one of the thread starters (either feluniozbunio and Doomforge in this 50+ pages) described a battle in which Dungeon's victory was gained by a surprise Armageddon. Both players were suprised by the result that Dungeon won that battle. Well, if you know the mechanism and imbed this strategy into your style of playing, you shouldn't be surprised.
Third reason why you don't see many posting this on the forum is probably the mindset that Armageddon is useless and people don't bother building Magic Guild Level 5. Without lv5 magics, how can you expect people to pull an Armageddon trick? On small maps, I'll start with Magic Guild Level 1, School of the Black Heart, (Town Hall), (Trade Guild), and then go all the way to Magic Guild Level 5. Then you don't really want to face me during Week 2-4.
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Raelag84
Famous Hero
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posted November 20, 2013 05:27 PM |
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Hey everyone. I've been out of the game for a while, but now I'm back to playing heroes 5 and wanted to ask about dealing with the anti-magic abilities of orcs and especially manna stealing imps.
Back in the day I use to design my warlock heroes to have ability groups that enhance might and magic. Think Leadership with empathy, or luck with warlock's luck. That way I have the magic to use for creeping, but I also am not doomed if imps steal all my manna.
But what about you guys? How do you guys deal with demons and orcs with anti-destructive magic abilities?
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darkprince
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 20, 2013 09:22 PM |
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Raelag84 said:
Hey everyone. I've been out of the game for a while, but now I'm back to playing heroes 5 and wanted to ask about dealing with the anti-magic abilities of orcs and especially manna stealing imps.
Back in the day I use to design my warlock heroes to have ability groups that enhance might and magic. Think Leadership with empathy, or luck with warlock's luck. That way I have the magic to use for creeping, but I also am not doomed if imps steal all my manna.
But what about you guys? How do you guys deal with demons and orcs with anti-destructive magic abilities?
I believe warlocks are doomed against shatter-destructive orcs. However, barbarians don't necessarily get that type of shatter easily without sacrificing fast-pace creeping early-game. If you pick Leadership as a warlock, your destruction and creeping speed tend to suck and you'll end up losing anyway.
My approach is usually go all the way destructive (destructive magic, enlightenment, sorcery, and maybe defense if you are lucky, logistics are a must to have) and try to engage the opponent as early as possible (when their anti-magic is not fully fledged). Dungeon is probably the weakest faction after 5+ weeks anyway.
Imps influence vary. For 1-year games, imps drain everybody and inferno becomes the strongest faction. For weeks less than 10, they don't typically pose a threat big enough to be of concern. You just have to be good enough in destructive so that you can obliterate your opponent in one or two spells.
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zaio-baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 21, 2013 10:04 PM |
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darkprince said:
My approach is usually go all the way destructive (destructive magic, enlightenment, sorcery, and maybe defense if you are lucky, logistics are a must to have) and try to engage the opponent as early as possible (when their anti-magic is not fully fledged). Dungeon is probably the weakest faction after 5+ weeks anyway.
As of multi games the true dungeon power lies within their ability to be effective with any magic school. So, instead to go every time with destro magic, better mix the things up and play every time with different magic. For instance - i always consider getting summmoning magic if i see firetrap as my 1st circle spell, or getting light or dark magic if i see an arcane library, towns with those spells in their magic guilds, or pyramids, magic academies, utopias etc.
Have in mind that you can learn a good amount of those low lvl light and dark magic spells from netral creeps. Also you can learn righteous might, slow and confusion from your witches.
darkprince said:
Imps influence vary. For 1-year games, imps drain everybody and inferno becomes the strongest faction. For weeks less than 10, they don't typically pose a threat big enough to be of concern. You just have to be good enough in destructive so that you can obliterate your opponent in one or two spells.
Those imps burn 100 mana week 8 with 1 external dwelling. Its pretty decent on poor maps, while rather weak on rich maps, where you can easily get 200 + mana even with orcs and knights. Not to mention the external building that doubles your mana once a week.
Inferno will not become the strongest faction in 1 year games, even if the imps drain all your mana. There is an artifact that counters the imps 
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darkprince
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 02:15 AM |
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zaio-baio said:
As of multi games the true dungeon power lies within their ability to be effective with any magic school. So, instead to go every time with destro magic, better mix the things up and play every time with different magic. For instance - i always consider getting summmoning magic if i see firetrap as my 1st circle spell, or getting light or dark magic if i see an arcane library, towns with those spells in their magic guilds, or pyramids, magic academies, utopias etc.
Have in mind that you can learn a good amount of those low lvl light and dark magic spells from netral creeps. Also you can learn righteous might, slow and confusion from your witches.
It would be ideal to be versatile. However, 2% for light and dark magic for Warlocks, forget it. I'd rather pick defense if I can choose which 2% to take. Firetrap, fire warriors, and phoenix take too much mana given their effectiveness in creeping (definitely go that route if Nur or Necros show up in the tavern), otherwise not really sustainable and often too risky if you don't have high-level units during Week 1.
If I am seriously considering surprising the opponent or if there is a Tome of Light Magic / Dark Magic in my control, I'll consider promoting a Demon Lord / Necro / Maeve or Ellaine /(and worst case) Lethos to be my hero leading Dungeon troops. Defense is so crucial in end-game that it trumps the racial elemental chain (assuming less than three Altar of Primal Elements and better armor/weapon to equip than the Warlock set). First having your starting Warlock (Sinitar perhaps) to blast the opponent with big destructive magic, and then let a mighty/light Demon Lord / Knight or mighty/dark Necro to finish them off.
Necromancers are the best heroes to have as companions early game, especially for Dungeon. You need as many cannon fodders as possible to avoid sacrificing either stalkers or maidens. Necros are fodder generators. If you have played Dungeon enough times, you should know what I'm talking about--crying for Necros Day 1 (of course crazy heroes in other factions like Nur, Havez, Deleb, Vittorio, Telsek works wonders as well; however, Ingvar is not nearly as good in this case).
zaio-baio said:
There is an artifact that counters the imps
Pendant of Conflux, 1 out of 26 relics (banning Wings of the Angel), that's a probability of 4%. If I let you have 4 randome relics in a 1-year duel map, your chance of getting that is slim (<15%, one out of 7 games)
The only faction that poses some threat is probably Fortress and a single hero Nur, but the extra number of Hell Stallions cannot be overlooked neither. Necros' spirit link will be too slow.
By the way, those who use the gating ability at the beginning of a decisive battle don't know how to play Inferno, really. Gating is a creeping skill, not to be used against opponents' main force.
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted November 22, 2013 07:38 AM |
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darkprince said:
...I believe warlocks are doomed against shatter-destructive orcs. However, barbarians don't necessarily get that type of shatter easily without sacrificing fast-pace creeping early-game...
Agree!
darkprince said:
...Imps influence vary. For 1-year games, imps drain everybody and inferno becomes the strongest faction...
"For 1-year games, imps drain everybody and inferno becomes the strongest faction" - Funny, (but I don't think it beats every faction in long game.)
For 1-year games,... - More funny 
Quote:
By the way, those who use the gating ability at the beginning of a decisive battle don't know how to play Inferno, really. Gating is a creeping skill, not to be used against opponents' main force.
ok this is funniest, unless you mean in context of this topic agst dungeon.
imho, warlock going light or dark kinda needs defense (so at least 2 x 2% skills; even better retrib if also get 2% leadership!)
oh well, demonlord going for light only needs 1 x 2% skill. Mentor helps heaps.
Pendant of conflux counters imps? Disagree if you have hardly any mana left, because you'll still be restricted that you can't really cast any spell of your choice willy-nilly.
@darkprince: agree with what you said above that not all will calculate potential arma dmg. Maybe dungeon can be quite a random faction for surprise & quick
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus 
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darkprince
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 06:42 PM |
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SKPRIMUS said:
For 1-year games,... - More funny
There is a 1-year duel map
SKPRIMUS said:
By the way, those who use the gating ability at the beginning of a decisive battle don't know how to play Inferno, really. Gating is a creeping skill, not to be used against opponents' main force.
ok this is funniest, unless you mean in context of this topic agst dungeon.
While I'm here to entertain, my claim about gating (not only against Dungeon) is built on empirical evidence
You can go and test this hypothesis "most decisive battle won by an Inferno with Gating can be won by an Inferno without Gating" using a duel map really quick yourself.
If you verified the hypothesis above, you can start to test an even stronger claim "stop using Gating increases your likelihood of winning."
Why is Gating useless most of the time then?
OK, the extra troop does not hurt, it is the initiative that you lose at the beginning of the battle that digs Inferno's own grave. For example, we all love Wyngaal so much to ban him in lv 20+ games. But a lv 20 Wyngaal only provides a 20% something advantage on the action bar--and we all feel that such advantage is unacceptable for the H5 game because a powerful charge destroys most troops of the opponent. Demon Lords who use Gating impose a -50% initiative on themselves (= letting the opponent having a high level Wyngaal). The damage such self-crippling brings is more than its gain, given the low defense Demon Lords have. Swift Gating reduces the initiative penalty to -25% but this number is still too big most of the time.
Case analyses:
Case 1: Larry (I) vs. SKPrimus (A)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soinQ4bOB-o
A very close one for the Academy.
Where is Inferno's Tactics by the way? Replacing Familiar with Vermin and replacing Arch Demon with Arch Devil will probably seal the fate of Academy before Narxes can even cast the 2nd spell.
Case 2: Azagal (I) vs. Blizzardboy (H)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNPrGx-GNGs
Azagal is taking the right approach here. Rush in without gating--this is even against Haven! The Demon Lord has such a big advantage until the Horned Grunt made that suicidal leap. Depends on how much mana the Knight has, I would replace Familiar with Vermin to add more output when the game starts.
Is Gating ever useful?
Gating is very powerful during creeping.
For decisive battles, Gating may be beneficial if you have Divine Vengeance AND high spell power, neither is readily available for Demon Lords.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 22, 2013 07:19 PM |
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Empirical evidence? Vs dungeon maaybe but otherwise you have probably not played often against a competitive opponent that knows how to play all factions. It would be wrong of me to say that gating should always be used with all available units but I can safely say that if the army level is decent enough then, most of the time, you cannot win without gating at all. Obviously, this changes if the spellpower is outrageously high or the armies are smallish.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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darkprince
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 07:42 PM |
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Elvin said:
Empirical evidence? Vs dungeon maaybe but otherwise you have probably not played often against a competitive opponent that knows how to play all factions. It would be wrong of me to say that gating should always be used with all available units but I can safely say that if the army level is decent enough then, most of the time, you cannot win without gating at all. Obviously, this changes if the spellpower is outrageously high or the armies are smallish.
Quite the opposite, as Inferno, you win with Gating when your opponent DOES NOT know how to play the other factions. Your opponent is so much weaker than you that you can even beat them WITH Gating.
If the game is close, Gating will lose. I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but try it yourself on hotseat and you'll be surprised.
When the number of troops gets bigger, the advantage of Gating often gets smaller.
You might feel Gating is useful because you used Gating to beat other players--this is probably because you are a much better player, Elvin. On the other hand, you might have had a close game after you beat other Inferno players who used Gating. You are quite relieved after beating the reinforcements; but they lost anyway--they could have won without Gating. It is always self-fulfilling to win when we are outnumbered, but most of the opponent's reinforcements are mere targets.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 22, 2013 08:03 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 20:04, 22 Nov 2013.
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I didn't play just casual players in my dueling days But in the end it comes down to level, army and artifacts.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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darkprince
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 08:10 PM |
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Elvin said:
I didn't play just casual players in my dueling days But in the end it comes down to level, army and artifacts.
I know, but your Inferno opponent may not be that strong
Case: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i24RBAAKss
Gating ruined everything.
For 10-week duels and given equal level, army and artifacts, Infernos are weak anyway.
Since our discussion is about whether Gating increase or reduces Inferno's chance of winning, we should assume level, army and artifacts the same for two Demon Lords (one uses Gating and the other doesn't) before doing comparisons, right?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 22, 2013 08:34 PM |
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That's season 1, my least balanced map Magic there was too strong for inferno so your best bet was good stats and charge all the way. Back then I did not have a proper sense of balance (and definitely not) for every faction matchup so I was correcting things as they came.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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darkprince
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 08:45 PM |
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Elvin said:
That's season 1, my least balanced map Magic there was too strong for inferno so your best bet was good stats and charge all the way. Back then I did not have a proper sense of balance (and definitely not) for every faction matchup so I was correcting things as they came.
I analyzed two Inferno cases from season 2 in my response to SKPRIMUS above. Supports my claim about Gating.
What's the best duel map you have in mind now (and a download link)?
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Raelag84
Famous Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 09:18 PM |
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Darkprince, may we have a match? I would like to try your suggestion. Sunday at 8:00 pm should work, but I live on the East coast of the US. I don't know what time zone you are in.
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darkprince
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 10:52 PM |
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Raelag84 said:
Darkprince, may we have a match? I would like to try your suggestion. Sunday at 8:00 pm should work, but I live on the East coast of the US. I don't know what time zone you are in.
We can do it tonight if you want. Just let me know the map. I'm on the East coast of the US as well.
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Raelag84
Famous Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 11:27 PM |
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darkprince said:
Raelag84 said:
Darkprince, may we have a match? I would like to try your suggestion. Sunday at 8:00 pm should work, but I live on the East coast of the US. I don't know what time zone you are in.
We can do it if you want. Just let me know the map. I'm on the East coast of the US as well.
Tonight will not do unfortunately.
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darkprince
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 22, 2013 11:30 PM |
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@Raelag84
We can plan for it. Just sent you a message through HC Messenger.
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted November 22, 2013 11:46 PM |
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Raelag84 said:
Darkprince, may we have a match? I would like to try your suggestion. Sunday at 8:00 pm should work, but I live on the East coast of the US. I don't know what time zone you are in.
Have you got a computer yet?
@darkprince, I know that you know that only valid test is combat, (not replays or calcs) although I can show quite a number of duel replays & duel maps.
Still you can't seriously mean that lizzardboy youtube thingy is valid?
BUT it'd be interesting to see you & Raelag84 play before making further comments since always better to see & analyse first-hand than have everything shown in detail
I thought you didn't live in USA going from what you posted before
I'm still interested in duel games but no fun opponent since they went busy ... maybe after you play Raelag84?
btw what's this 1-year duel map?
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus
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darkprince
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 23, 2013 12:20 AM |
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SKPRIMUS said:
Still you can't seriously mean that lizzardboy youtube thingy is valid?
Very few people spend time on promoting this game and I personally think SwampLord deserves a lot of credit for making those videos on his own (despite the fact that most comments were wrong and some tactics were not close to being optimized).
SKPRIMUS said:
btw what's this 1-year duel map?
1-year: http://www.mediafire.com/download/078quf59d6qr3rh/lord8.5.zip
This map was built by a H5 player back in 2008, very old stuff. The map itself is not parsimonious and contains too much irrelevant information. Many features are not very user friendly (e.g., no infinite movement).
Later on, a 10-week duel map with a completely different setup (clean, straightforward, and easy to use) took off and became more popular.
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darkprince
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 23, 2013 04:33 AM |
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Just step back a bit so that I don't sound totally crazy about Gating.
Out of the seven Inferno stacks, Hell Stallion, Firehound, and Succubus Seducer/Mistress, Arch Devil don't need Gating.
Gating of Horned Grunt, Pit Spawn, and Vermin depends. If you use Familiar to drain mana, definitely use Gating (use Phantom Forces to clone one more stack to drain some more).
The key is reach the other side as fast as possible. If Horned Grunt, Pit Spawn, and Vermin can all hit the opponent (Tactics, Aura of Swiftness, and Windstrider Boots), no Gating is necessary. This setup maximizes the likelihood of winning for Inferno. It would be very sad for Inferno if Nebiros and Windstrider Boots are not available. In that case, Gating is better than moving the units forward without touching anything.
Against the slowest faction Necro, Gating's power is also maximized.
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