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PhoenixReborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted April 09, 2007 03:19 AM |
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Quote:
And I still think BD is more durable than hydra becuase it has higher defence.
I think a Hydra will last longer because it is less vulnerable to the hero attack.
You know those battles that come down to just the last couple of units and the heroes decide it, the middle tier unit has an advantage over a high tier unit, because usually the heroes are high enough level to dish out the damage.
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Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.
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86wyp
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 09, 2007 09:42 AM |
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No. hydras last longer because there is no reason to attack them if i can attack any other units.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 09, 2007 10:43 AM |
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Quote:
And I still think BD is more durable than hydra becuase it has higher defence.
It depends. As long as the attacker has lower def than both hydra and dragon, the hydras are more durable. If the attack tops hydra's def but not dragon's one, dragons are more durable.
But we shouldn't forget about things like regeneration: In midgame, it makes a big difference. Except that, before you can get dragons, the hydras will already breed for 2-3 weeks, and so, their total endgame HP will be higher.
And not-attacking hydras is a huge tactical error against full-magic warlock, 86wyp. trust me 
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86wyp
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 09, 2007 04:18 PM |
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Quote:
It depends. As long as the attacker has lower def than both hydra and dragon, the hydras are more durable. If the attack tops hydra's def but not dragon's one, dragons are more durable.
But we shouldn't forget about things like regeneration: In midgame, it makes a big difference. Except that, before you can get dragons, the hydras will already breed for 2-3 weeks, and so, their total endgame HP will be higher.
And not-attacking hydras is a huge tactical error against full-magic warlock, 86wyp. trust me
While. Let's assume the attacker has 0 attack, the hydra has 15 defence, and the black dragon has 30d. The normal damage is 1. Then the attacker do 0.571 damage to the hydra and 0.364 damage to the BD.
240*0.571>125*3*0.364 (almost equal ) And as you said when the attacker gets higher attacks, the BD has an advantage. In fact BDs always has an advantage.
For the regeneration thing, I don't think that makes a big difference. All battles of warlocks ends fast. If the opponent gets enough fires and focus them on the hydras, they die in one turn. Otherwise the opponent dies in a couple of turns. Either way the hydras won't regenerate many.
I don't understand why should I attack hydras first, can you explain?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 09, 2007 04:35 PM |
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Because you want to kill them first. Why? Simple. In most cases, there is the strongest damage dealer, and he is the only one that can wipe out the hydras in 1st blow (with luck, possibly). He's also the most obvious target of my implosions. When he falls, the hydras are becoming more and more safe. And, the chances for warlocks get higher: he can go for more implosions, since the hydras will most likely survive a fatal lot of punishment from your less-powerful units. With paladins and griffins gone due to implosions, I don't really care whether my furies are alive or not.. If the hydras are alive and at full hp, squires, inquisitors and marksmen can't take them out fast.. but my implosions can take out them..
And if hydras get killed first, followed by shadow matriarchs, any unit can kill the remianing furies after the death of paladins and griffins: they are insanely fragile and die to anything.
The most simple error: failure to determine which is the bigger threat: the moderatly damaging, low-durability stack, or the less-damage stalling stack. For warlocks that do hit'n'run mostly, and depend on their spells, NOT the creatures, the bigger threat is, ironically, the hydra stack
Ah yes, hydra stacks have higher survivability, NOT the dragons (for creatures with low att), I've used the official formula and excel, I couldn't make such a mistake.
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ma_trix
Adventuring Hero
Carpe Diem
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posted April 09, 2007 04:37 PM |
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I still have huge problem with warlock:
How to creep?
I know that there were several posts about it, several tips n tricks but i need kinda guide for warlock's creeping Coz i can creep very well... but slow! And it is surely not thing i want! And i can creep aggresively but it ends usually with reloading te game coz i commit one mistake and it's over
Can anyone write how to creep, especially in first two weeks?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 09, 2007 04:41 PM |
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Huh? it's very easy..
seriously..
search for slow level2-3 walkers first and kill them without any risk with furies.. take some exp from chests.
Get level 3 guild, check what spells you have, try to get a corresponding +dam artifact.
Take it, go pokemon 
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ma_trix
Adventuring Hero
Carpe Diem
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posted April 09, 2007 04:45 PM |
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Really so easy?
1. Furies' bulding
2. 3rd lvl magic guild
3. Get back home
4. Merchant -> artifact
5. I'm not afraid of anything!
??
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 09, 2007 04:50 PM |
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You need to play warlock often in order not to make a mistake.
Creeping things swiftly with assasins only is quite dangerous. I remember one ive found 2 stacks of mages and 3 phoenixes i a valt when i placed 7 scouts. I killed them somehow but its like walking on the edge. One false move and you're done.
You need 3rd lvl spell only to kill casters. You can kill rest tiwh either furies or scouts and other spells. You dont need any artifacts if youre not going to kill horde lvl7's
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86wyp
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 09, 2007 05:41 PM |
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Edited by 86wyp at 17:41, 09 Apr 2007.
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Furies are fragile, but raiders and dragons and witches are not. Actually sometimes dragons are even harder to kill than hydras(don't just tell me you didn't make such a mistake, I've seen you made many mistakes sorry to say that) If the enemy can't kill hydras after killing dragons and witches and raiders and furies then he will lose even quicker if he attacks hydras first. That's only my assumption. I've never really met an opponent who attacks my hydras first.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 09, 2007 06:12 PM |
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But do you depend on your creatures at combat? If so, no wonder the enemy attacks other units first.
I play quite a hardcore warlock. Creatures are tanks only for me. Against my strategy, hydras are the first target, actually
Yes, I do a lot of mistakes indeed, but not mathematical, since I just wrote down the formula in excel and set the variables, what kind of mistake could I do by doing that ?
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betruger
Known Hero
empowered mind
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posted April 09, 2007 06:36 PM |
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Quote:
Yes, I feel similiar way. Betruger probably plays different style: the mixed style (part destructive, part might) which most warlocks seem to like. I prefer pure "magic" way: creatures serve little purpose to me. That's why Yrwanna never really helped me much.
Hah, I also prefer to concentrate on magic, and that's why Yrwanna is the best. Because:
+She gets guaranteed enlightenment, and she gets it from day 1 (that's the biggest plus ever)
+She makes the furies actually useful against the map
+Starts with ~9 furies - excellent for early creeping.
+Destructive is practically guaranteed to get, as a warlock
Sinitar is not so bad, but:
-His special doesn't matter, intelligence it better
-Not always can you get enlightement (depending on map, on smaller maps you can be in trouble)
Vayshan:
-useless special
+guaranteed warlock's luck
Other heroes are not even worth considering imo.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 09, 2007 06:43 PM |
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Quote:
+She gets guaranteed enlightenment, and she gets it from day 1 (that's the biggest plus ever)
I'd rather enjoy destructive and luck first, enlightment can wait. I get it always anyway, well, maybe I'm just lucky. But not getting destructive (yes, possible with yrwanna ~~) is much more dangerous than not getting enlightment.
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+She makes the furies actually useful against the map
Damn, what's with those furies? Do you use them against, i dunno, hunters, mages? I guess not.. against slow walkers, they can do it without loses even when they have 1 point of attack and they come in tiny numbers. All the bonuses&boosted numbers just make the time they kill those zombies shorter. An overkill, don't you think?
Quote:
+Starts with ~9 furies - excellent for early creeping.
Again, numbers give us only a shorter creep, and they don't allow to kill more.
Quote:
+Destructive is practically guaranteed to get, as a warlock
Yes, but you can get unlucky and get it later.. and getting expert destructive fast is better than getting 4 furies more, don't you think ?
Quote:
-His special doesn't matter, intelligence it better
Than get both! Yrwanna's special is completely worthless in the endgame, too. Sinitar starts with eldritch arrow, it's a huge benefit. Stone spikes suck for creeping
Quote:
-Not always can you get enlightement (depending on map, on smaller maps you can be in trouble)
To be honest, I never had problems with that, but I seem lucky then
Quote:
Vayshan:
-useless special
Just like Yrwanna..
Btw I'm not saying Yrwanna is bad or smth, she's actually top three indeed. I just like Vayshan & sinitar better.
regards
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86wyp
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 09, 2007 07:12 PM |
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Quote:
But do you depend on your creatures at combat? If so, no wonder the enemy attacks other units first.
I play quite a hardcore warlock. Creatures are tanks only for me. Against my strategy, hydras are the first target, actually
Yes, I do a lot of mistakes indeed, but not mathematical, since I just wrote down the formula in excel and set the variables, what kind of mistake could I do by doing that ?
Yeah I always try take full use of my creatures. That doesn't mean i am going to learn attack and leadership. Basically I agree with the skill picking in this thread. However Dungeon creatures have high potential in offence. Those dragons and raiders and furies make thousands of damage in their first round of attack if the enemy hero doesn't have defence skill. While assassins and minotaurs are good backups and bring into play in the following rounds. Even hydras can be a threat due to their six-headed attack and enrage ability. I know what is relying on heroes and using creatures as tanks. But I believe that's not enough for dungeon. You know warlocks has 30% growth rate of attack but only 10% defence. They must attack as quick as they can and end the battle as soon as possible. Sure u can deal a lot of damage with your implosion. But believe or not sometimes that is not enough and then you will have to run. Maybe you can come back maybe you can't. But when I put all my creatures on the battle field I always want to see my enemy flee. So I try to inflict damage with not only the hero spells but also creature attacks.
Can I see your formula? Maybe we just make different assumptions.
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betruger
Known Hero
empowered mind
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posted April 09, 2007 07:39 PM |
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Edited by betruger at 02:03, 10 Apr 2007.
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Quote:
Quote:
+She makes the furies actually useful against the map
Damn, what's with those furies? Do you use them against, i dunno, hunters, mages? I guess not.. against slow walkers, they can do it without loses even when they have 1 point of attack and they come in tiny numbers. All the bonuses&boosted numbers just make the time they kill those zombies shorter. An overkill, don't you think?
Overkill or not, it's just a minor benefit. The real bonus is starting with enlightenment
Quote:
Quote:
+Starts with ~9 furies - excellent for early creeping.
Again, numbers give us only a shorter creep, and they don't allow to kill more.
They do. Having 14 furies in first week lets you more or less safely attack high initative creatures, like hellhounds, wardancers etc. because you can kill 2 stacks per turn, one with a spell, one with furies.
Quote:
-His special doesn't matter, intelligence it better
Than get both! Yrwanna's special is completely worthless in the endgame, too. Sinitar starts with eldritch arrow, it's a huge benefit. Stone spikes suck for creeping
Agreed. Eldrith arrow is great. I forgot about that. But it's not essential.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 09, 2007 08:01 PM |
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Quote:
Yeah I always try take full use of my creatures. That doesn't mean i am going to learn attack and leadership. Basically I agree with the skill picking in this thread. However Dungeon creatures have high potential in offence. Those dragons and raiders and furies make thousands of damage in their first round of attack if the enemy hero doesn't have defence skill. While assassins and minotaurs are good backups and bring into play in the following rounds. Even hydras can be a threat due to their six-headed attack and enrage ability. I know what is relying on heroes and using creatures as tanks. But I believe that's not enough for dungeon. You know warlocks has 30% growth rate of attack but only 10% defence. They must attack as quick as they can and end the battle as soon as possible. Sure u can deal a lot of damage with your implosion. But believe or not sometimes that is not enough and then you will have to run. Maybe you can come back maybe you can't. But when I put all my creatures on the battle field I always want to see my enemy flee. So I try to inflict damage with not only the hero spells but also creature attacks.
Can I see your formula? Maybe we just make different assumptions.
I've used the formula from the manual, I might check it if you want to, but to be honest, it doesn't matter: Both dragons and hydras have 90% survivability, the extra 1% that matters only for creatures with lower ATT than hydras' DEF doesn't matter that much.
About the creatures: Well if I have cash, I use them too of course (like, the lizards' charge in 1st turn..). The problem of warlock lies in the complete inability to dispel any means of dark magic: Taking lizards is even bad against factions that have easy access to puppet master, why? Because they will control your raiders and use them to kill your hydras and you can do nothing about it  That's why I'm very sceptical about Warlock creatures. The warlock lineup is fun, the creatures are good, but it's so annoying to see how blind/freenzy/mass suffering and the allmighty puppet master tears you apart.
That's why I don't even try to think about my army as a strong force: One puppet master and it's all over.
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86wyp
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 09, 2007 08:18 PM |
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That's ture. And that's why i love BDs so much. They are not only powerful but also reliable. Inferno has the same problem btw
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 09, 2007 09:54 PM |
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Warlocks are far better than inferno againts dark magic, thanks to the great power of their destructive magic. Bah, i wonder why nival made a might faction without access to light magic, it seems that some factions are made without analyzing its balance againts another factions. Examples: 1. dwarves, they are too impossible to defeat at late game thanks to their godly runes 2. inferno are craps without (deleb, grok, nebiros, alastor), although their end game power are awesome, dark magic makes them instant loser
Quote:
yes, dwarves can be a pain: fortunately, these defenders can do nothing against simple hydra + assassin push with a powerleveled warlock with a bunch of proper skills and spells. Capturing the dwarven town is another thing, due to ridiculous guardpost, but if you can trap his hero in his town and steal his mines, you will win, obviously. And with a proper playstyle, you can do it most of the time.. unless the dwarven player is clearly better than you, but if he is, he'll win with anything, not just dwarves. Skill>all, you know.
That is not easy to rush the defender specialist, try to use dwarf, if i'm not mistaken 5 archangel only kill 20 defender at hero lv 10. Yeah, i admit that dwarf strategy is to turtling as long as possible, even this hero is good againts might or magic rush or both, but dungeon hit n run can be a pain, this is the best and easiest hero (the defender specialist) to turtling vs might and magic rush, several other heroes also good, but they require a little thing to be played easily. Resurrection rune is crazy rune, imho it's the most prowerful rune beside rune of charge (try dwarf and you'll know why i say this rune powerful, i mean in practice not only in paper), charge rune always makes many miracle (this rune should become high lv rune, but nival put it as lv 1 rune, strange nival).
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 13, 2007 03:55 PM |
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After couple last games i've switched back to Sinitar as a main hero. Reason is that i got destructive magic with Yrwanna at lvl 15 or something few times. It was very annoying. I think that they both, Yrwanna and Sinitar are good , its just a matter of some luck in getting right skills.
I got another game vs Necro lately and it was one sided game i used hydras black dragons and few matriarchs. Didnt do minos at all and left about 100 furies and 75 grim raiders at home for second fight. Battle took place in 5th week and ive lost 12 matriarchs 3 dragons and about 8 hydras. His puppet master/frenzy were useless and first turn 2k meteor shower hitting 4 stacks killed half of his army.
I think this matchup really need serious rebalancing too
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 13, 2007 04:20 PM |
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I think the same, but shhh... 
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This thread is pages long: 
