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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted April 13, 2007 06:05 PM |
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The only thing that makes the Warlocks overpowered is because you can abuse this game by retreating. I wonder what would happen to DoomForge on a map with Shackles of the Last Man
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 13, 2007 07:45 PM |
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Quote:
The only thing that makes the Warlocks overpowered is because you can abuse this game by retreating. I wonder what would happen to DoomForge on a map with Shackles of the Last Man
let's pass over that one, shall we?
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted April 15, 2007 10:44 AM |
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Best hero for dungeon? Nur of course..
She has easily the best start with arrow + mana to cast it almost ALL the time. She also has a lot more breaking potential than any warlock because her summoning magic is better than warlock's destructive at creeping.
I mean destructive can only deal pure damage to stacks and that's it. Summoning doesn't have this "limitation" and can confuse AI to no end with spells like Phantom Forces, Summon Elemental and Phoenix. Firewall and Fire Trap are often a very neat solution against 2x2 creatures.
Fortunately, chances are little for Dungeon to get Nur day 1, week 1 in tavern so..
..the best warlock for dungeon is either Sintar or Yrwanna because their neverending struggle for mana is not as painful as for other Warlocks.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 15, 2007 04:05 PM |
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Of course she is not, not only she has useless racial skill (which you must develop if you dont want to mess up your heroes progress) , but also has less spellpower and she is not capable of learning empowered spells. Motw might be a bonus but you wont be able to use area spells with it anyway so its not that good.
Mana is not a problem for warlocks if you take right skills and you know how to creep with furies. In last game i had about 350 mana in 4th week, 150 is a minimum i get. why do i need even more?
With secrets of destruction and racial building you should have about 6 knowledge on day 9. Thats enough creep efficiently.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 15, 2007 06:05 PM |
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Yeah, Nur doesn't suit dungeon. Besides, she will suffer morale effect due to dungeon creatures.
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted April 15, 2007 06:19 PM |
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Quote:
Of course he is not
Nur is a SHE. Otherwise splendid comment. She is not very useful on dungeon.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 15, 2007 06:24 PM |
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She is useful if she doesn't suffer morale effect. Maybe we can make MMR dungeon, but i'm not sure
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 15, 2007 06:29 PM |
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Quote:
Maybe we can make MMR dungeon, but i'm not sure
Don't think so. Only good spell from summoning would be fenix. Arcane armor may be good too sometimes, but it can be cleansed, so again, its rather no. Don't think summoning is worth 3 slots and most often you want to wreck destructive havoc and kill most dangerous stacks ASAP and casting some random not-so-powerful spells isnt a way to go.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 15, 2007 07:19 PM |
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Yup, you're right. A wizard that leads warlock creatures is crazy idea.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted April 15, 2007 07:53 PM |
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I mean Nur with summoning can break and rush easily. Anyway, I don't mean using ONE hero. You choose Yrwanna or Sintar at start but if you happen to see Nur in tavern things will look really nice because you can use her and her starting army to creep and move through a map really fast while 1 knowledge warlocks simply cannot.. If it's a rush game Nur will win it for Dungeon.
If it is not, then sure, Nur isn't the best late game hero for dungeon and Warlock IS better late game than her - no doubt about it. But still, all the dirty work can be done by Nur - she can own creeps and provide artifacts and resources which will help to build a city up and will level up a warlock really easily.
It's just summoning + infinite mana will do small miracles against creeps. Desructive + empowered spells won't.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 15, 2007 08:31 PM |
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I already told you that when played right you have 6 knowledge on day 9 , do u rush before day 9?
By the end of week 1 i almost always have hero lvl 10+ so i don't understand why you say warlock heroes are lacking speed.
Sure , academy with their mages and gremlins are faster in creeping but it doesn't mean that nur will be any help for dungeon.
I'm sorry but when i read what you are writing i get the feeling that you need more practice in creeping with warlocks.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 15, 2007 08:35 PM |
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agree with feluniozbunio.. warlocks are godly creepers; no need for nur (albeit MMR is technically superior to warlock's possibilities..)
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Destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted April 15, 2007 09:00 PM |
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Edited by Destro23 at 21:01, 15 Apr 2007.
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IN a game I played last night on the map dueblo, I used Yrwanna, and basically refered to this post on my wait time. By end of week 1 I had a lv12 Yrwanna, on day 2 she learned secrets of destruction (After a lucky with hut on destruction) and got +2 knowledge and circle of winter.
THe creeping went exceptionally. I was very fast and broke to the middle through 37 spectral dragons, then to a utopia, then through 62 Arch Angels week 4. I then went for round 1 vs my sylvan opponent.
He had the shackles /waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance please.
Just wanted to add, the information in this post is gold! Thanks to both Felun and Doomforge (and others but these are the most prominent) For the input for this faction.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted April 15, 2007 09:22 PM |
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I didn't say warlocks are slow - I said they are slow compared to Nur. Even 6 knowledge isn't too impressive compared to Nur infinite mana. As soon as she starts casting elementals and maybe phoenix(+raise dead maybe) creeps have to fight neverending army.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 15, 2007 11:26 PM |
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Thanks for support Destro
Shackless are awful and should be banned 
Does it matter how you kill creeps? As long as they are dead and you didn't lose anything (or few scouts) it doesn't. And I'm telling you it can be done with standard warlock, thats all.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 16, 2007 12:12 AM |
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Even Nur is slightly faster than almost all warlock, still, trying to use Nur to command dungeon creatures as sfdx said will result in total defeat againts human player, why? no need to answer.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted April 16, 2007 12:30 AM |
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Edited by sdfx at 00:33, 16 Apr 2007.
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Did I say it can't be done with a standard warlock? Did I say Nur will command dungeon troops? I only said that Nur is faster. The warlock and his troops will have their tasks while Nur and her starting army will have other tasks. I consider Nur the best hero for dungeon because she will probably be able to fight tougher guards sooner than a warlock.
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Pomo
Famous Hero
The lone peasant
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posted April 16, 2007 01:48 AM |
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 16, 2007 02:08 AM |
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Quote:
Right after hit and run.
Nah. I agree that hit&runs are little overpowered and should be more restricted but shackless is just going too far. I say little because a good players know how to repeal hit&runs. Its not always possible but very often is.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 16, 2007 08:24 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Shackless are awful and should be banned
Right after hit and run. 
Yes, shackles are just fine. If Dungeon becomes invincible with Hit and Run, you haven't solved anything, just moved the problem. Rather, one should look into either boosting the Dungeon's might capacity or nerfing the Academy's MMR capacity. Doomforge's balancing thread gives an excellent review of this.
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What will happen now?
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This thread is pages long: 
