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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted May 05, 2010 07:52 AM |
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Edited by JoonasTo at 07:54, 05 May 2010.
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Aye. That is obvious. However, that was not the issue. 
Learn to read. 
"the ice/flying type will most likely not be able to OHKO anything from its type alone, even if super effective and having high stats"
So mysti, since you're one of the newer generation players, tell me, did they reinvent the rules of battle after number three?
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Mytical
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posted May 05, 2010 07:55 AM |
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Not really. It is still pretty much rock/paper/scissors. In fact, to be honest..you play one you've pretty much played them all. There are a few cosmetic changes (different pokemon, different 'teams' to go against, etc) but I've played just about all of them. I do like the fact that in HG/SS you get to visit other regions once done with the main game though.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted May 05, 2010 07:57 AM |
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Ooooh, so you'll be able to leave kanto and johto and go to gen 3 world for example? Are they just for pokemon or wil ther be trainers there?
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Mytical
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posted May 05, 2010 09:21 AM |
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Hmm which has Brock, Misty, etc as gym leaders? Cause once you get past the champ of the starting area that is where you can go. Yes there will be trainers there..and you eventually get to face RED..who is known as Ash Catchum in the Anime..the one with Pickachu!
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted May 05, 2010 09:46 AM |
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That be Kanto. That's part of the game silly. Red is the last enemy. In the original silver, gold and crystal too. So there is no extra areas then? 
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Mytical
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posted May 05, 2010 09:56 AM |
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Guess not, Gold and Silver are two that I never got to play. *shrugs*
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted May 05, 2010 09:59 AM |
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You should. At least Crystal. It's the best one in my opinion. Out of all I've played. So the HG/SS might be pretty awesome. 
Too bad I don't have NDS, might have to go the illegal route for them.
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ohforfsake
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posted May 05, 2010 09:59 AM |
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Rock slide have 75 power, at least for what I remember. The power of the move is factored in to the attack, and there's also the 50% damage from same type.
The reason I also include the 50% damage bonus is one very important detail. Usually Rock/Ground types have an enormeous attack and hit point, just to take make an example of the 2 most used in the game, Rhydon and Golem:
Rhydon: Health:320-414 ; Attack:238-394 ; Special defense: 85-207
Golem: Health:270-364 ; Attack:202-350 ; Special defense: 121-251
Articuno: Health:290-384 ; Defense: 184-328 ; Special Attack: 175-317
Now, the attack power is factored in as a multiplier, likewise is the attack stat:
Quote:
Damage = ((((2 * Level / 5 + 2) * AttackStat * AttackPower / DefenseStat) / 50) + 2) * STAB * Weakness/Resistance * RandomNumber / 100
Source:http://www.serebii.net/games/damage.shtml
Now assuming maximum potential the different values of interest are:
Attack*Power/Defense for:
Articuno vs. Rhydon: 317*95/207 = 145
Articuno vs. Golem: 317*95/251 = 120
Golem vs. Articuno: 350*75/328 = 80
Rhydon vs. Articuno: 394*75/328 = 90
There's no surprise in these numbers, Articuno is after all legendary, however notice that these numbers are more than 50% of the articunos attacking numbers and also that we must add a constant (2*level/5+2) and that makes the advantage even bigger for Rhydon and Golem as the constant gets doubled as well.
Just to show some numbers of who'd win in a maximum stat, maximum level, no luck round (also no crits, no flinching and no freezing):
Articuno vs. Golem:
Round 1 Articuno attacks
([42]*[120]*[1/50]+2)*[1.5]*[2] = 308.4 damage
Golem Health=364
Total damage: 85%
Round 1 Golem attacks
([42]*[80]*[1/50]+2)*[1.5]*[4] = 415.2 damage
Articuno Health=384
Total damage:100%
Golem wins.
Articuno vs. Rhydon:
Round 1 Articuno attacks
([42]*[145]*[1/50]+2)*[1.5]*[2] = 371.4 damage
Rhydon Health=414
Total damage: 90%
Round 1 Rhydon attacks
([42]*[90]*[1/50]+2)*[1.5]*[4] = 465.6 damage
Articuno Health=384
Total damage:100%
Rhydon wins.
Taking into account, 5% crit rate and 10% freezing rate, and 90% hit rate of rockslide, which are probabilities independent of eachother, the chance of actual victory for Rhydon and Golem, which are equal as both will be 2 hit knocked out, are:
Chance of ground/rock win = (hit frequency)*(amount of times of no crit)*(amount of times of no freezing) = 0.9*0.95*0.9 = 77% chance to win. [Did I do the chance calcs right?]
Note that with Ancient Power, only 15 power point lower and 100% accuracity, both Golem and Rhydon will only 2HKO Articuno! So you're absolutely right Articuno have an amazing defensive power.
Also, statements such as who is more bulky, do more attack but have less defense, etc. aren't really worth that much, because I think this shows, that if the game makers had given a bit different stats, very little, Articuno would be the winner every time, after all the damage is 85% and 90%, could as well be 100%.
However with the stats as they're, Articuno would only win those matchups 23% of the times.
Edit: I forgot to include blizzard.
Notes about Blizzard
I'd like first of all to note that Blizzard is a very rare move, I personally always choose the 100% safe ice beam and very seldom the low accuracity blizzard. I however can't use my personal preference to give a kind of frequency of people using ice beam contra blizzard, and as you mentioned that attack, I can only assume you'd be using it, so it'd only be fair if I took it into consideration as well!
The great thing about blizzard is that it will probably OHKO the opponent, which means the chance of articuno win equals the chance of Blizzard hitting, however to be certain I'll do the calcs:
calcs
Articuno vs. Rhydon: 317*95/207 = 184
Articuno vs. Golem: 317*95/251 = 152
Articuno vs. Golem:
Round 1 Articuno attacks
([42]*[152]*[1/50]+2)*[1.5]*[2] = 389 damage
Golem Health=364
Total damage: 100%
Articuno vs. Rhydon:
Round 1 Articuno attacks
([42]*[145]*[1/50]+2)*[1.5]*[2] = 469.7 damage
Rhydon Health=414
Total damage: 100%
Conclusion, for max statted, max level pokemons, Articuno OHKO's both Golem and Rhydon.
Chance of Articuno winning in round 1 = chance of blizzard hitting:
70%
Now I can only say for round 1, because unlike ice beam which have 100% accuracity and guaranteed 2HKO, rock slide got only 90%.
Chance of Articuno winning 2 rounds = (chance of blizzard not hitting)*(chance of rock slide not hitting) = 0.3*0.1 = 3%
So even if there's 70% chance of winning in first round, in total there's more than 70% chance of actually winning for Articuno, for the chance in 2 rounds is 3% and falling, though I think it's still pretty accurate just to write:
Chance of Artiucno winning 70%
Conclusion
Under the assumptions made (max stats, etc.):
You were right, given the setup is Blizzard vs. anything
I was right, given the setup is Ice beam vs. Rock slide
You were right, given the setup is Ice beam vs. Ancient Power.
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Mytical
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posted May 05, 2010 10:00 AM |
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I've played ALMOST all of them, just not those two unfortunately. That is why I wanted to get these 'updated' versions
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ohforfsake
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posted May 05, 2010 10:14 AM |
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I too really enjoyed crystal. I really like the battle tower, at least there's some challenge in that, not like the later battle towers which are awful in my opinion. [Though I've only tried gen III battle towers].
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JoonasTo
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Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted May 05, 2010 10:42 AM |
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You used maximum values. Getting a pokemon like that is very lucky.
Here are the same calculations using averages.
Golem averages: hp 317, attack, 276, s.def 186
Rhydon averages: hp 367, attack 316, s.def 146
Articuno averages: hp 337, s.attack 246, def 256
Attack*Power/Defense for:
Articuno vs. Rhydon: 246*95/146 = 160
Articuno vs. Golem: 246*95/186 = 126
Golem vs. Articuno: 276*75/256 = 81
Rhydon vs. Articuno: 316*75/256 = 93
Articuno vs. Golem:
Round 1 Articuno attacks
([42]*[126]*[1/50]+2)*[1.5]*[2] = 323 damage
Golem Health=317
Total damage:100%
Articuno vs. Rhydon:
Round 1 Articuno attacks
([42]*[145]*[1/50]+2)*[1.5]*[2] = 409 damage
Rhydon Health=367
Total damage:100%
Of course it can go either way but if pokemons are average with neither side having a good specimen or a bad specimen that just the way it goes.
Besides, didn't you forget to include that the rock moves make four times the damage so even ancient power would be one hit KO?
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Mytical
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posted May 05, 2010 10:46 AM |
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That is also placing a legandary against normal pokemon. Try finding a Rock legandary and seeing how it goes.
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ohforfsake
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posted May 05, 2010 10:56 AM |
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Bah having to delete older posts to be able to reply:
@Mytical
In my opinion, it shouldn't matter who is against who, just because the pokemon is a legendary, and thereby have higher stats in total, does not mean it does not have the same weaknesses. Sure a delibird would be pretty chanceless, but delibird have horrible stats, quite extremely horrible, iIRC. However I find, comparing a maximum (Articuno of ice/flying) with a typical (Golem and Rhydon) shows to a large degree that the advantage of Ice/flying isn't that big after all, and actually may not even exists.
@Joonas
I did use the 4 multiplier of damage in the attacks when Golem and Rhydon attacked. I think the reason that the damage is 'low' eventhough both Golem and Rhydon have a very high attack is because:
High number / High number < Low number / low number
Just looking at the extreme
2/1 > 3/2
So it's often better to sacrifice attacking power in return for defense, unless you've sufficient speed to make a OHKO, since it gives more durability to have more averaged stats (averaged in, 100 defense and 100 attack is better than 120 attack and 80 defense in a physical fight (also better than 80 attack and 120 defense)).
About you using average stats, I disagree with that method for this reason: Stats are random, but they aren't determined when entering battle, they're determined upon capturing. Meaning that for a 'serious' trainer getting high stats is not a matter of luck as much as it's a matter of spending time.
Edit: Not going to delete anymore posts, so my reply are gonna be up here:
@Joonas: Actually Articuno have a total of almost 100 more (580 vs. 485 for Golem and Rhydon) in stats. Though Articuno is very high in special defense (120), which doesn't help, Rhydon and especially Golem are as well very high in defense. Where the real difference is, is that Articuno also have a high attack, whereas Golem and especially Rhydon have very low special attack.
Never the less, Articuno have the advantages of very averaged stats, which I argumented about before, is to be prefered in diret damage battles.
All that being said, it's really not of much use to compare ground/rock vs. ice/flying, because it's very unlikely they'll ever meet in a completely unprepared battle! Most often one of the sides will have several types of boosts, and I actually prefer to use my Rhydon agility boosted with rollout (after time 2 it's a OHKO) and reversal (with low hit point, it's 300 base damage, which I'd guess is enough to OHKO, though I haven't checked). Also, articuno is most more useable in general in many other situations, especially as a special defense wall/staller, but the weakness to rock means in general that it's very fragile, because even a low stat pokemon can probably 2HKO Articuno with rock attacks, whereas Articuno probably aren't lucky enough to meet low special defense (though high hit point) that it can 1-2HKO.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted May 05, 2010 11:00 AM |
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Edited by JoonasTo at 11:06, 05 May 2010.
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As you can see from the stats Articuno's are not any better than Rhydon or Golem. Compare defense, s.attack/attack, s.def, speed and HP. Rhydon and golem got better attack and defense by far, HP is about the same and s.def and speed are worse. That calls for a pretty even judgement does it not?
2 better
1 equal
2 worse
Legendaries in the first 251 pokemon aren't overpowered. Gyarados, Dragonite, Rhydon, Golem, Alakazam, Gengar, Tyranitar, Charizard, Typhlosion, Machamp and Kingdra just to name a few are just as good or even better. If you go breeding them they will be better.
Edit @ Ohfor: Oh yes you did use it. Sorry, my bad. Missed that four there somehow. Should clean my glasses more often.
About averages, it takes ages to go breed pokemon so you will get those maximum stats. If I see such a 'serious' trainer who's willing to breed his pokemon for that long I'll probably point at him and laugh. One should also note that getting all stats that high is hard. Getting high specials and getting high attack and def at the same pokemon is REALLY timeconsuming.
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Kareeah_Indaga
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posted May 05, 2010 08:33 PM |
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Quote:
About averages, it takes ages to go breed pokemon so you will get those maximum stats. If I see such a 'serious' trainer who's willing to breed his pokemon for that long I'll probably point at him and laugh. One should also note that getting all stats that high is hard. Getting high specials and getting high attack and def at the same pokemon is REALLY timeconsuming.
It gets easier in HG/SS with the Power Anklet/Bracer/Weight etc; they'll let you pass on the IV of the apropriate stat from the parent holding it to the child.
Also, are you two taking Nature and EVs into account with those numbers? I don't blame you in the least for not taking items into account since that falls into the stratgey/tactics zone and not just power, but Nature, at least, is not that difficult to control.
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ohforfsake
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posted May 05, 2010 08:38 PM |
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Just a note about what you quoted first. I think it should be up to the person who playes the game what they enjoy. Some of us enjoy breeding generation after generation creating the 'perfect' pokemon others might enjoy cute looking pokemons and some might enjoy making battle tactics, all in all I think someone shouldn't be criticised for what they like.
About what you posted: I don't know how to calculate natures, (I don't even know what it is) and about EV's, well I kinda forgot all about that. I took the maximum values from bulbapedia, but I guess they're with EV's maxed, which would make the numbers all wrong, and much harder to calculate, because different pokemons have different EV's. Anyway, what exactly are we looking at, maximum potential, or average potential (i.e. what types you'd expect to meet and how that would go)?
Edit: Lower numbers means less value in both denominator and nominator, but I guess with an equal amount, which means a greater advantage to Articuno (as 2/1 > 3/2 > 4/3, etc. and both attackers have higher offensive than defensive stats in the respective attack range [Rhydon/Golem(Attack)vs.Articuno(Defense)&Articuno(Spec. Attack)vs.Rhydon/Golem(Spec. Defense)])
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted May 05, 2010 08:51 PM |
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No EVs taken into account. But of course you add the pokemon's strenghts so articuno would be aimed at better first hit kills and golem and rhydon for more satying power. So they would cancel each other out, no?
No nature taken into account either. The stats are without any.
Is the box trick still working in the later games? That if you put pokemon the box and take it out the matches won even with level 100 still count to the stats?
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted May 05, 2010 08:53 PM |
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I enoy pokemon I like.
I don't tend t do that much battle tactics or breeding though I've done my fair share of both and I find myself expert at fights and building teams. I'm just a natural tactician in a lot of things. Still, I tend to find the need to have some pokemon in my team overrides the intellectual tactics. 
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emilsn
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posted May 05, 2010 08:55 PM |
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Please dont get to technical with pokemon!!!
 Ruins the game I have come to the conclusion that one should get a team with:
A surf pokemon, Fly pokemon and THE REST SHALL BE THOSE YOU FIND AWESOME!! 
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted May 05, 2010 08:58 PM |
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Quote:
Please dont get to technical with pokemon!!!
Ruins the game I have come to the conclusion that one should get a team with:
A surf pokemon, Fly pokemon and THE REST SHALL BE THOSE YOU FIND AWESOME!!
Wrong.
The team should only consist of pokemon you find awesome!
That's also why I lost interest in the newer games.
The pokemon look so gay none of them are cool...
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