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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 12, 2011 12:10 PM |
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Hero_of_Light
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted September 12, 2011 01:26 PM |
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Quote:
Improved pathfinder!
Do you mean to say that the AI was made to understand that the hero needs a boat in order to cross over and reach the gems?
Because if that's the case, i don't think that the game should have that much "liberty" on your moves. I mean what if you made a wrong click? It would be a shame to board a ship and then have to wait till the next day to unboard it.
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Not idly do the leaves of Lorien fall.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted September 12, 2011 02:13 PM |
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You can misclick with regular pathfinder as well.
Don't you think it's one of more useful fetaure in heroes 5 and 6? especially when subterranean gates and possibly teleports / whirlpools kick in. No more clicking you way through half a map!
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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Hero_of_Light
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted September 12, 2011 02:31 PM |
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Well, it's your call, but i think since vcmi is a project that recreates Heroes III, it should be true to its original gameplay. Maybe this feature should be optionalized like the mountain/forest walk on WOG.
Again, it's your decission anyways.
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Not idly do the leaves of Lorien fall.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted September 12, 2011 02:35 PM |
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I don't see your point. It can do everything original pathfinder does and even MORE. You can always choose your own way.
The objective is to improve the limited engine and these are improvements taken from H5 and H6.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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Bersy
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted September 12, 2011 05:10 PM |
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The game will choose the shortest way, I suppose. If there is no land way, it's quite reasonable to include boats/see into account.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted September 12, 2011 05:12 PM |
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Does that mean I can do this:
- Completely revealed map
- 2 level map
- hero is placed on the top left corner of upper world
- he wants to reach bottom right of the upper world
- this can only be done by going to 2 different 2way teleporters and 2 times subterranean gate (1 time down, and then up again)
When I now click on the hero, and then on the bottom right corner, it shows the COMPLETE path throughout the whole map, including all 4 teleporters and the 2 gates?
That would be incredible cool.....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 12, 2011 05:19 PM |
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I would ignore it if was like that. Finding hidden paths by trials and intuitive deductions is part of playing. If it shows how a well placed artefact can be reached, will be a step back...for me at least. Age of Wonders shows the entire path between two points, no matter how far. But it has not the Heroes editor capabilities to hide things by complex design.
Now I see what was about, that screen. First I thought Adelaide casted water walk so I did not notice anything special.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted September 12, 2011 06:36 PM |
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I've got to agree with Salamandre. I'm not sure I'd want to computer to always tell me the best way to go.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted September 12, 2011 06:46 PM |
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Having played enough games where the feature is present I can only say it's a very, very good feature to have.
But in case of custom maps like Salamandre's it would seem like cheating at times.
So torn between regular gameplay and scenarios. It is so helpful with maps for teleporters that it should be in I think.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Bersy
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted September 12, 2011 07:19 PM |
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Oh no, Salamandre is again with pixel hunting. Heroes is turn base strategy, casual games in style of searching hidden things on the pictures (legion of them) is of extreme type and cannot be considered when making game. According to your wish, pathfinding is evil by itself. You can stil use keys to move hero cell by cell...
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 12, 2011 09:00 PM |
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Bersy, if for you Heroes map is the one where you throw mountains, trees and lakes only to have various passabilities and fulfill the map, then you should stick to random maps, because they do this at best while remaining pure ugly and totally uninteresting.
Custom maps are art, not mathematics.
And there is a tradition, with some gems at starting point. It is because those gems people still play the game today in single player. If they did not exist, WoG would be useless because Heroes dead since long time.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Bersy
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted September 12, 2011 09:35 PM |
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You cannot even compare total number of players to the minority, who search for non-standard and non-random maps, and among them to the minority who likes pixel hunting and quests. Just statistics. You buy cd, you download wog, you play default and random maps. U think them ugly, but not everyone has such a high art taste.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 12, 2011 09:51 PM |
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No one forces you to play custom maps. We do them because we love doing them. Just play random or make yours, taste is not a concept to criticize. One does not need any "artistic eye" to notice that random maps use inappropriate layouts, have no story and no long term strategy.
They are suitable for multiplayer, that's all. Saying to a mapmaker that he uses pixel hunting is as saying to a programmer he uses too precise codes. He will certainly laugh and pass his way. All it matters is that the map remains functional. And battle strategies do not depend on layout or design, they are separate work.
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Era II mods and utilities
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted September 13, 2011 05:55 PM |
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I also have an opinion on the strategy vs. RPG issue (we have a saying, opinions are like anuses, everyone has one), but first a practical suggestion: could the enhanced pathfinder function be made optional, like many WoG features (e.g., Commanders) are? (More work, I realize.)
Heroes I introduced a new concept to me, the strategy game. Before that I had only played RPG games. I loved the idea of being able to go in any direction, N-S-E-W, and being able to generate my own story (how dare the enemy attack my weakest Hero - don't they know I will retaliate!), rather than following somebody else's set script.
The problem for map-makers though is how to provide an interesting strategy game. It is much easier to plan an RPG game with one or two fixed paths to victory, vs. a strategy game which could have a thousand different paths.
So in creating maps myself, I find myself tending toward the RPG end of the spectrum, although I wish I had the skill and dedication to come up with new ideas for strategy games. By strategy here I mean planning moves on the Adventure map, rather than in battle.
My current idea, which I may never implement, is to split a two-level, 144x144 map into 32 regions, each about 35x35, and each having at most five entrance/exit points to neighbors (up/down, N, S, E, W). For the dumb AI, all these would be open to the neighboring region, but for humans, they would be scripted into a 3D maze at the start of the game. That is, most would be blocked to humans and others would connect to some other region (not necessarily a neighbor) by teleporting the human's Heroes. (I would use Local Events to trigger the scripts.) So the human players would have to learn the maze in order to get at the AI's, and the AI's would have an advantage to compensate for their stupidity.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 13, 2011 06:02 PM |
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Bersy comments wasn't about RPG, from which he also introduced features in Phoenix, but about him not liking to look minutes at map to figure where to go. It is not possible to please everyone, most players complain that maps are too simple, easy and simplistic designed. Painting maps is a concept which died 8 years ago, with Kispalko, Tanzi and Commando. Today most maps released are just composed from some random objects thrown here and there without any artistic feeling about how those objects blend each other.
It is not surprising that today, the maps most played are still those made by previous quoted authors because besides battle strategies they have unique look.
However, each mapmaker will do what he can best and what he likes best because others opinion is not the key for acquiring new skills. Good luck for the maze, sounds complex.
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Era II mods and utilities
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted September 13, 2011 06:46 PM |
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You are right, "RPG" is not the best term. Perhaps "Adventure Game" would be better. I am thinking of games like "Zork". RPG's are in fact less frustrating in some ways, although both often have the characteristic of hidden things which must be found, often by trial and error. Both often require "walkthrough" explanations to help most players get through them.
Heroes I, II, and III were different - no walkthrough required. Also the maps could be replayed from different sides (colors) without much loss of the feeling of originality.
In RPG or Adventure games, the player is constrained and controlled to some degree by the mapmaker, and path constraint is usually part of this (if only to insure that certain ERM scripts are triggered). So the Heroes pathfinding function has to be restrained by leaving only narrow paths and often blocking them with objects which have to be visited before the rest of the path can be seen. I find myself waving the cursor around trying to find some hidden object to visit, which I guess is what Bersey calls pixel-hunting.
Despite the concomitant pixel-hunting, there are some great Heroes RPG games (cough-Stargate Atlantis Rising-cough), so I hope map-makers will have the option of disabling the advanced pathfinding in VCMI (which will be much appreciated for standard Heroes maps) .
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 13, 2011 07:18 PM |
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There is no such "pixel-hunting" need. I can't stop from repeating this to all those who can't find an artefact. Original Heroes has "V" hot-key for this, proof that they had in mind that the tome of air will not be placed straight on the road, under our nose. I have no problems finding things with this key, even on maps outrageously complex. You can't hide from mechanics.
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Era II mods and utilities
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted September 13, 2011 11:24 PM |
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I have no great objection to hidden objects myself, but I note that in "The Dragon Slaughter", for example, the V key does not show me the location of the Azure Dragons who have the Water Walk scroll, the monoliths behind statues or smoking volcanoes, or, in general, most objects which are behind other objects.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted October 10, 2011 08:20 AM |
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Good news!
Almost all SoD creature abilities, including casting spells, are now supported.
Until next month all should be working correctly.
Also, quick peek into code shows that pathfinder behavior can be turned on and off.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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