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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted March 30, 2016 12:17 AM |
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Edited by yogi at 00:24, 30 Mar 2016.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 30, 2016 07:04 AM |
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vitirr said:
While I agree that not providing full camera control in a 3D game is quite retarded, I don't have the same memories from H5. I remember myself fighting with the hidden game seetings in your profile file to allow the more top down camera seeting that I liked to play with.
Besides, in H5 you HAD to make extensive use of the camera because it was so easy to miss some resources or other objects hiddent behind others.
If something could be said from H6 is that their default camera and map design was pretty good making most things visible (and yes that's probably the only good thing to say about that game).
I actually loved playing with the camera. When H5 introduced the classic camera I was too used to its original camera to switch but it wasn't all too practical. H6 was certainly better in that respect but I hated the lack of camera rotation. Why the hell not?! All it takes is a camera reset key to avoid confusion.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Aionb
Known Hero
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posted March 30, 2016 09:33 AM |
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I completely agree with Elvin's post above, I never had any issues with the H5 camera style and I even grew to like it. I ended up considering the camera rotation as part of the exploration process 
Maybe that's why they removed the option in H6/7, seeing it as part of what their blurry minds called "the tedious micromanagement"?
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted March 30, 2016 09:46 AM |
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Dunno what you're talking about  . H6 has a camera rotation:
Click 1
Click 2
Click 3
Click 4
Click 5
The only difference here is the fact that in H6, the rotation isn't permanent/fixed. You can rotate, but once you let go of the keys it turns back to normal. For a screenshot you need to immediately press F12 after letting go of the keys .
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Casihasi
Known Hero
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posted March 30, 2016 09:54 AM |
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Salamandre said:
Antalyan said:
Also when many people here still prefer H3 & so on 2D graphics, this is a great example of why listening to the community here has not much high sense here.
1) you confuse people liking H3 with people liking 2D. The fact H3 is 2D is probably the 27 th reason I -and probably most others- prefer it.
2) For a strategy game is very smart to wait ~2 minutes -charging graphics- between reloads or starting game, yeah 3D rocks.
+1
Homm3 is considered one of the best strategy games ever for numerous other reasons. Yeah the graphics are great for such an old game, i will say that as well. I have yet to see another game where the creatures look so much "alive", and with such great animations (Archdevils finger anyone?). Can they do the same with 3D? Prolly, but what good are modern graphics if it's just not happening...
Anyway, for me the top reasons that Homm3 is immortal are...
a) the editor, it inspired so many map makers and artists to create wonderful maps. It was a lovely tool, just like the whole game.
b) Rich in strategic depth, but keeping it clear and easily understandable at the same time. That is something most games fail to create: easy to use but complex. Only masterpieces offer this gaming experience, and lol Homm7 is def. not one of them.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted March 30, 2016 09:54 AM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 09:55, 30 Mar 2016.
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Dies_Irae said:
The only difference here is the fact that in H6, the rotation isn't permanent/fixed. You can rotate, but once you let go of the keys it turns back to normal. For a screenshot you need to immediately press F12 after letting go of the keys .
That is pretty much like not having a rotating camera.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted March 30, 2016 09:58 AM |
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I agree that free camera and much higher zoom would be incredibly better.
But about the game overall graphics, I think it depends on how quickly you can get used to it and how many hours you have spend in the other/previous games.
As regards me personally, I was able to easily move from H2 to H5 but could not return back than. In H6 I was first of all really missing the free camera but after some hours it was OK as most of objects vere well visible. I have currently the biggest problems with H7, as many objects seems to be very small and sometimes you even need to rotate the camera to see where you move but you cannot rotate it enough and zoom enough so yeah, it is annoying.īBut as many maps look wondeful, I guess I will get used to it after some time too.
____________
Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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Pim18
Known Hero
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posted March 30, 2016 10:24 AM |
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vitirr said:
Pim18 said:
Giving my two cents regarding 3D.
What I liked about Heroes 5 was how free the camera controls were. You could zoom in very deep and had free rotation. This actually helped a bit with general overview of the map I think.
While I agree that not providing full camera control in a 3D game is quite retarded, I don't have the same memories from H5. I remember myself fighting with the hidden game seetings in your profile file to allow the more top down camera seeting that I liked to play with.
Besides, in H5 you HAD to make extensive use of the camera because it was so easy to miss some resources or other objects hiddent behind others.
If something could be said from H6 is that their default camera and map design was pretty good making most things visible (and yes that's probably the only good thing to say about that game).
I was about to refute this when I suddenly remembered that I spend like 3 days searching for a Seer's Hut in one of the tutorial missions in Heroes 5. So yeah you are pretty much correct.
I think that 3d can be done with Heroes of Might and Magic but it does need some clear map design.
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Aionb
Known Hero
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posted March 30, 2016 11:21 AM |
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Dies_Irae said:
Dunno what you're talking about . H6 has a camera rotation
That's right, I don't know why I completely forgot about it.
Dies_Irae said:
The only difference here is the fact that in H6, the rotation isn't permanent/fixed. You can rotate, but once you let go of the keys it turns back to normal. For a screenshot you need to immediately press F12 after letting go of the keys .
Oh, right, that's why I completely forgot about it!
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 30, 2016 11:31 AM |
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sobaka770
Hired Hero
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posted March 30, 2016 01:17 PM |
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Pim18 said:
vitirr said:
Pim18 said:
Giving my two cents regarding 3D.
What I liked about Heroes 5 was how free the camera controls were. You could zoom in very deep and had free rotation. This actually helped a bit with general overview of the map I think.
While I agree that not providing full camera control in a 3D game is quite retarded, I don't have the same memories from H5. I remember myself fighting with the hidden game seetings in your profile file to allow the more top down camera seeting that I liked to play with.
Besides, in H5 you HAD to make extensive use of the camera because it was so easy to miss some resources or other objects hiddent behind others.
If something could be said from H6 is that their default camera and map design was pretty good making most things visible (and yes that's probably the only good thing to say about that game).
I was about to refute this when I suddenly remembered that I spend like 3 days searching for a Seer's Hut in one of the tutorial missions in Heroes 5. So yeah you are pretty much correct.
I think that 3d can be done with Heroes of Might and Magic but it does need some clear map design.
Don't they clearly indicate where the Seer's Hut is in the small cinematic right beforehand? Anyway, for me Heroes 5 has the best visuals of all the 3D installments. Sure people bash the color and style (as if games can't have their own identity), but the game aged so very well, objects on the map are actually very visible and distinct. I have more pleasure playing Heroes 5 maps than Heroes 6 or even 7 which are cluttered and overdesigned.
Still the best would be to lock down the camera Aoe3/Diablo3 style. It would force designers to make everything visible from one angle which is much easier to do. Heroes 7 does a terrible job with visibility.
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted March 30, 2016 01:38 PM |
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I prefer to have as much control over the camera and zoom as in H5, but still not having to more it around to find hidden stuff. I don't like the restrictions in H7, but I also don't want time-consuming camera manouvering to see what you want. You should be able to move the camera because you want to, not because you need to. Even in H3 I found myself overlooking resources that were partly hidden behind towns or other large objects.
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Pim18
Known Hero
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posted March 30, 2016 03:20 PM |
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Quote:
Don't they clearly indicate where the Seer's Hut is in the small cinematic right beforehand?
They do. I did feel pretty stupid afterwards
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted March 30, 2016 05:08 PM |
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The problem of not being able to find some objects behind other objects (whether the game is in 2D or 3D) can be easily mitigated by using the feature from the game Stronghold Crusader.
Usually the buildings obscure the view, especially if the player expands his/her town. As it is seen here:
However, there is a possibility to diminish the buildings to just their squares on the map (removing their height), thus revealing units behind buildings or some gaps in the wall through which the enemy may pass, etc. Example:
The Stronghold game has fixed camera and perspective. Thus another option that is available to that game is the compass feature that enables to change the perspective from which the map is observed (North, South, East, West). I couldn't find a good example online, sorry. If I had the game installed I could have made some screenshots for that.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted March 30, 2016 07:00 PM |
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Brukernavn said:
Even in H3 I found myself overlooking resources that were partly hidden behind towns or other large objects.
They actually did that in several cases on purpose with Artifacts too. It pretty much required you to thoroughly inspect the map with View Air and/or View Earth to see if you missed anything.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 30, 2016 07:57 PM |
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Not really, pressing "V" key shows all hidden resources and artifacts, so it was on purpose, no need any spell.
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Pim18
Known Hero
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posted March 30, 2016 10:07 PM |
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I remember Stronghold Crusader. That was a good game. The original Stronghold had the same features btw.
The only example of something similiar that I could think of was Age of Empires 2 in which you could see the outlines of your units if they were hidden behind trees or something similiar
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sobaka770
Hired Hero
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posted March 30, 2016 10:16 PM |
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Maurice said:
Brukernavn said:
Even in H3 I found myself overlooking resources that were partly hidden behind towns or other large objects.
They actually did that in several cases on purpose with Artifacts too. It pretty much required you to thoroughly inspect the map with View Air and/or View Earth to see if you missed anything.
I think for a strategy game like Heroes hiding objects on the map is not very good design. Heroes 2 were almost perfect in terms of clarity.
In my opinion, the series really went awry because in pursuit of graphical design the clarity suffered greatly. Simplicity and visibility should take priority not rotating cam, whether in adventure map or combat. That's why I use Diablo 3 example a lot (despite totally different genre), Blizzard decided deliberately to lock the angle in pursuit of gameplay purposes and looking at how other similar games do it (PoE or Grim Dawn), the rotating camera is just a nuisance. Heroes 5 had the stylised part down, all the outstanding elements pop out from the terrain, the 3D could be handled better, especially underground though.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 31, 2016 03:03 AM |
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Finding creative ways of hiding objects is a mapmaker tool, among many others. Otherwise you have towns, roads between, armies along, then 2 months later everyone is bored and goes playing another game. Battles are still the main action but when traveling between zones, the mapmaker should try to find new ways to hook the player, is also a way for him to improve from a map to the next.
We had good maps in H2, but we got legendary maps in H3, due to increased editor possibilities. People still regularly post in the other forum, asking how to solve this or that quests.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted March 31, 2016 08:40 AM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 08:41, 31 Mar 2016.
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Having to twist a camera to look for things on what is supposed to be an overview of the map is counter-productive.
It's a strategy game, not Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker.
Quote:
Heroes 5 had the stylised part down
Which is no small feat when you borrow heavily from other popular franchises
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
