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Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~ This MEGA THREAD is 1634 pages long: 1 200 400 600 800 1000 1200 ... 1383 1384 1385 1386 1387 ... 1400 1600 1634 · «PREV / NEXT»
Pim18
Pim18


Known Hero
posted April 22, 2016 09:22 PM

I think that this only goes to show how underfunded this game was and poorly those funds were managed.

Half of the budget was used on the graphics yet for some reason they still reused assets from an older game? Sounds like poor budget management if you ask me.

I think that Ubisoft(and to a lesser extent Limbic) have reached the "unredeemable" level now. This is unacceptable.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 22, 2016 10:06 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 22:08, 22 Apr 2016.

verriker said:
looks like two different positions and possible talking past each other on the asset reuse, some people are putting their role as the consumer to one side and taking a devil's advocate position to discuss asset reuse in broad strokes and explain Ubisoft's actions,

but the rest of us are the consumer, we are speaking only about this specific case of asset reuse to begin with in its own egregious context ...

Yes ... but then, no. I mean, I took the role of devil's advocate, as you put it, because people were going all bananas and "OMGBBQ THIS IZ A NEW LOW UBISNOW" over this issue with no-one (among the posts I saw at least) actually considering whether it was an actual problem that those assets were re-used. I mean, do people think those buildings look bad? Do they think they don't match the artstyle of H7 (lols)? Or is there another problem I'm not even aware of? I didn't see any specifics, like you mention yourself, and that was why I tried to make the point that it doesn't make sense to just black-and-white condemn asset re-using.

The reason why I'm even taking this stance is because I think we need to make an effort to be specific in our criticism, exactly like you mention yourself. The fronts are pretty strongly drawn at this time, with UbiSoft painting a picture of us being a group of haters who bash them uncritically for anything they do. We don't want to play into that image imo. God knows there are plenty of specifics we can criticize Ubi and H7 on, so let's do that instead of play the game they want!

Elvin said:
The approach is fine but the failings are not really a matter of budget. Not most of them anyway. With more money you can add more things and have a more stable release but it can still go to waste when you have poor judgement and sense of priorities. I mean the backbone of the game is the skill and spell system. How much more expensive would it be to add a few faction unique abilities and make an H5-like skillwheel? Or a properly random mage guild with more spell slots per tier? Or design proper hero specialties? A modder can do that in a matter of minutes.

Agreed completely, many of the things that made H7 a bad game were not a question of resources, they were things that should have been made anyway no matter how they designed the game.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted April 22, 2016 10:51 PM

alcibiades said:
Yes ... but then, no. I mean, I took the role of devil's advocate, as you put it, because people were going all bananas and "OMGBBQ THIS IZ A NEW LOW UBISNOW" over this issue with no-one (among the posts I saw at least) actually considering whether it was an actual problem that those assets were re-used. I mean, do people think those buildings look bad? Do they think they don't match the artstyle of H7 (lols)? Or is there another problem I'm not even aware of? I didn't see any specifics, like you mention yourself, and that was why I tried to make the point that it doesn't make sense to just black-and-white condemn asset re-using.

The reason why I'm even taking this stance is because I think we need to make an effort to be specific in our criticism, exactly like you mention yourself. The fronts are pretty strongly drawn at this time, with UbiSoft painting a picture of us being a group of haters who bash them uncritically for anything they do. We don't want to play into that image imo. God knows there are plenty of specifics we can criticize Ubi and H7 on, so let's do that instead of play the game they want!


fair enough makes lots of sense, I don't feel anyone was saying screw all asset recycling and gave my impression of what they were getting at, though agreed it is vague,

actually I'm hampered by my bad memory here because I was in a big debate about the reused assets where I established my opinion already, except I forgot it was at Celestial Heavens so nobody saw it lol
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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted April 22, 2016 11:18 PM
Edited by EnergyZ at 23:26, 22 Apr 2016.

Yves Guillemot, Ubisoft CEO said:
Going forward we should reuse more things. Today, we will create a car in one studio, and we don't reuse that car in any other games. We need to make sure we can reuse items that people won't care about. That is one direction we can take to optimise the investment.


The words are "reuse items people won't care about". Of course, people just interpret this to the way they like, hence why we got many reused creature designs. Among other things.

alcibiades said:
verriker said:
looks like two different positions and possible talking past each other on the asset reuse, some people are putting their role as the consumer to one side and taking a devil's advocate position to discuss asset reuse in broad strokes and explain Ubisoft's actions,

but the rest of us are the consumer, we are speaking only about this specific case of asset reuse to begin with in its own egregious context ...

Yes ... but then, no. I mean, I took the role of devil's advocate, as you put it, because people were going all bananas and "OMGBBQ THIS IZ A NEW LOW UBISNOW" over this issue with no-one (among the posts I saw at least) actually considering whether it was an actual problem that those assets were re-used. I mean, do people think those buildings look bad? Do they think they don't match the artstyle of H7 (lols)?



I wouldn't mind to have some minor things being reused. But when you got creature designs, Heroes, things from other unrelated Ubisoft games and so much more for an AAA game (or so it is said) for 50? One should even worry if such art designs could even fit the game.

It's just the philosophy behind the game - "reuse the best from the previous (Heroes) titles", at least without much thought as to what it gave such importance and why it was the best in that games. After all, a certain feature, which works really well in one game, does not have to work in an other one, for it sometimes relies on other features. In other words, certain features are just best because they synergize and work well with other ones.

alcibiades said:

They are running a cooporation, not a charity, and they do what they must do: Manage their resources in the way they think is best for their investors. I can't even disagree with their assessment of the situation: If I should make the decision purely from a business point of view, I'd also say low-investment-low-outcome would be the reasonable way to handle this franchise; high-investment would prove too much of a risk. I still regret it from a fan's point of view, however.


I could appreciate such business. What I cannot appreciate is outright lies and deception, to the point where they are losing the customers' support. Of course, releasing bad games means they'd ruin such support, but when they start making false advertisements, the notorious one for that pre-order for America (when no copies of the game were even delivered), then such a company is bound to be destroyed. Someday.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted April 22, 2016 11:23 PM

@Alcibiades

I think a game company makes good business when it makes good games. Repeated bad practice is never good in the long run.
Look, Ubisoft were impressed by the sales of H5 which where much higher than what they expected, also let's not forget Heroes is not any brand created two days ago, it should be part of top TBS on the market in terms of quality. Then they gave a budget for H6, and as you know Erwin screwed it up with his "innovations" (I'd rather call them suppressions, get rid of this, get rid of that, simplify!). It is no coincidence H7 got a short budget, it is because of the failures of a very similar team for the title just before. You are right saying Ubisoft probably doesn't have any sympathy for the franchise, otherwise they would have realized the people they put in charge don't have the competence required for this series. While I agree the most crucial aspects should be to enhance gameplay and that rest is secondary, I also find it sad we've came to a point where reusing assets doesn't even come to the benefit of great mechanics and overall gamedesign. What I think is if H6 wouldn't have tried to reinvent the wheel and make a good successor to Tote as everybody was expecting instead, H7 would have gotten better budget. Don't you find it somewhat odd that Ubisoft tells us H6 was a financial success then H7 can't even have more than two factions if all assets would have to be new?

It is true as Elvin and fuChris highlights that even with all constraints a more competent team and leader could have delivered a great Heroes at least in terms of strategy and playstyle, they wanted to work with the community? Quantomas is right here working on AI, Magnomagus gave in 5.5 a redesign of Tote skill system, etc.
The major thing killing the series is the ego of Team Erwin and that is not needed to be proven anymore.

What I am saying is if the people helming the brand weren't so clueless and unwilling to learn (I know I sound like a jerk saying it like that but it's the truth) there would most likely be a proper budget and a more successful attempt to milk from an anniversary as you say, by  doing a common practice in business: investing. I think it goes for life too, if you don't invest into something, how can you expect it to grow strong and big, black magic? They took the risk, with H6, but they took the wrong risk. This is the only reason they had to play safe for H7, but unfortunately they did not play safe at all, since they created something so far away from the players expectations.
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AlexSpl
AlexSpl


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted April 22, 2016 11:46 PM

In other words, they screwed up.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted April 22, 2016 11:47 PM

Big time.
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airodinamic
airodinamic


Hired Hero
posted April 22, 2016 11:47 PM

lol i think ubisoft just need to remaster Heroes 5.

Make a faster and yet smarter A.I.
Improve the visuals for some of the low textures (mainly in the cutscenes)
Hire a new voice actors to record the dialogues of the game for both the base game and the expansions (no more different Isabel in every game)
Add few new neutrals and maybe add a Sanctuary as a bonus faction.
Make the game steamworks (no uplay) and using Steamworks for the multiplayer. but keep the LAN option and maybe ass a Direct IP connect like in Heroes 4.

If they do that they can get some funds for the next game and hire Nival again to make a better game. xD

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted April 22, 2016 11:56 PM

They don't want to work on Heroes V. I believe the reason was because the development phase was over after Tribes of the East and they wanted to make new cash by releasing Heroes VI.

Fortunately, you have got some nifty mods around for Heroes V.
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airodinamic
airodinamic


Hired Hero
posted April 23, 2016 12:09 AM

EnergyZ said:
They don't want to work on Heroes V. I believe the reason was because the development phase was over after Tribes of the East and they wanted to make new cash by releasing Heroes VI.

Fortunately, you have got some nifty mods around for Heroes V.


yeah but maybe this will make them some extra fund so they can hire a better dev studio next time. and maybe im the only one but i would love a truly remastered heroes 5 with extra faction and all the goodies that i say as a example. wish ubisoft just had a common vision with Nival and maybe they could be still working together. just improve the game engine and make every new game just bigger and better that the last one.

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted April 23, 2016 12:12 AM

airodinamic said:
EnergyZ said:
They don't want to work on Heroes V. I believe the reason was because the development phase was over after Tribes of the East and they wanted to make new cash by releasing Heroes VI.

Fortunately, you have got some nifty mods around for Heroes V.


yeah but maybe this will make them some extra fund so they can hire a better dev studio next time. and maybe im the only one but i would love a truly remastered heroes 5 with extra faction and all the goodies that i say as a example. wish ubisoft just had a common vision with Nival and maybe they could be still working together. just improve the game engine and make every new game just bigger and better that the last one.


There are a lot of things Ubi could/should do. But the other reason, from marketing perspective, is that when having such a great game, any sequels would mean nothing if people play the prequel.

The only thing that come from this is to release just a better game than every predecessor. Coming from Ubisoft, it would be a miracle if they even release a better game than Heroes IV, at least.
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airodinamic
airodinamic


Hired Hero
posted April 23, 2016 12:26 AM
Edited by airodinamic at 00:27, 23 Apr 2016.

lol yeah and im still sad that ubisoft did not make a HD edition of Heroes 4 on PCs and Tablets. the game need a lot more attention becouse heroes 3 is very playebel on modern pc's with the HD patches and so on but Heroes 4 have a lot of crashesh, memory leaks and so one (the gog version) and i honestly think Heroes 4 will be far more touch frendly game that Heroes 3 especaly if they make a zoom-in option in the world map xD I so much want to replay the game but this crashesh and framerate drops just kill my mood to play it

PS: Sorry this is kinda off-topic.

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Karanshade
Karanshade


Adventuring Hero
posted April 23, 2016 08:44 AM
Edited by Karanshade at 09:05, 23 Apr 2016.

alcibiades said:
The reason why I'm even taking this stance is because I think we need to make an effort to be specific in our criticism, exactly like you mention yourself. The fronts are pretty strongly drawn at this time, with UbiSoft painting a picture of us being a group of haters who bash them uncritically for anything they do. We don't want to play into that image imo.



Huge fail But at least your eyes are opening.Thx for the effort !


I also wanted to answer to someone who was gloating that noones defend H7 anymore but I can't find his post on this megathread .

Well we simply don't post here . People who like H7 have no place posting here . HC is for SYSTEMATIC BLIND H7 bashers only.


I'm glad ubisoft got the balls to tells you in your face what me and my friends found out months ago. So we stopped posting , spaced out the visit , and there ...months after months , same old same old , same verriker posting hate about a game ....if I don't like a game , I m not sure I'd be posting about it for months.I can't understand how the ten active people in this thread are actually functionning ? is that some sort of needed recognition ? Going nt a site and bash a game you don' t even play days after days ? borderline psychopathic for sure.


As one of my firend stated , don't go to HC , it is  whiner community now. As an acronym , I can only agrees that it reflects the quality.

A place to take a dump.  




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agneslynd
agneslynd


Hired Hero
posted April 23, 2016 09:24 AM

You can stick fingers in your ears and pretend it's just haters out for you, but sales figures speak for themselves.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 23, 2016 10:57 AM

Galaad said:
@Alcibiades

I think a game company makes good business when it makes good games. Repeated bad practice is never good in the long run.

That's all rosey-red and good, but let's go a level lower - what does that mean, "good games"? I mean, do you think there are ever any developers who set out purposefully to make a bad game? I'm not saying this to say that what UbiSoft does is commendable (most of you should know me well enough to know my stance on this subject), but we also have to be realistic about how things work in real life. UbiSoft has one major goal, and that is to maximize their profit, and the way they have acted makes good sense in terms of achieving that goal as I see it. Our job is not to sulk about them doing what any corporation would do, but to act in a way that makes their goals align with ours the best we can.

I think the point where we can really condemn UbiSoft for how they handled the franchise is with H7. I loathe H6, but I don't see any particular reason to believe their intentions with that game were shady. Problem as I see it came with H7: H7 seems like a quick cash-grab spawned by the fact that H6 earned them very well (from what I read at least) in spite of fans hating it and an extremely short life-span; the profit probably being secured by many old-time fans blindly pre-ordering H6 (I was one of them). However, the negative reception of H6 cannot have been lost on them, the technical performance was a disaster, and the rate with which that game was abandoned speaks for itself. The fact that they chose to keep on the same development team for H7 and try to sell us a low-budget H6-copy by falsely hyping it as a "best of the series" and a "return to the roots" was downright deceptive, however.

So where does that leave us? Well, the fact that they pull this trick on us with H7 shows that the lesson they learned from H6 was that they could make easy cash in spite of the product released didn't match our taste. So what we must do is to attempt to act so that H7 becomes as much as an economic disaster as ever possible - in this respect I agree 100 % with Verriker about being "responsible consumers", even if my way to reach this conclusion may be less idealistic than his.

The good news is, from what I've seen about sales information, we may have had some good success on that account, sales of H7 seems to have been very bad. The bad news is that if we succeed in this, that gives us no guarantee for a brighter future. If H7 fails economically, it is entirely possible that UbiSoft simply decides to put the franchise into the grave. Or to sell it off to someone whose vision of the game aligns even less with ours (Heroes RTS anybody?). But that's still the best shot we have for another good heroes game, as I see it. Another run with team-Erwan would be almost unberable, so I guess the (remote?) possibility that UbiSoft either decides to put someone with an actual sense of what the game needs at the helm of H8, or alternatively sells it off to someone who understands the series, is the best we have to hold out for.

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frostymuaddib
frostymuaddib


Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
posted April 23, 2016 11:01 AM
Edited by frostymuaddib at 11:03, 23 Apr 2016.

alcibiades said:

Yes ... but then, no. I mean, I took the role of devil's advocate, as you put it, because people were going all bananas and "OMGBBQ THIS IZ A NEW LOW UBISNOW" over this issue with no-one (among the posts I saw at least) actually considering whether it was an actual problem that those assets were re-used. I mean, do people think those buildings look bad? Do they think they don't match the artstyle of H7 (lols)? Or is there another problem I'm not even aware of? I didn't see any specifics, like you mention yourself, and that was why I tried to make the point that it doesn't make sense to just black-and-white condemn asset re-using.


Why I dislike reusing assets in this way is because that is the third game that Ubi made with the same assets and models, and the second one that failed, imo. First was H6, and the assets were brand new then. Unfortunately, the game failed on other fronts, but I can say that visually it looked much better than H7.

We then had Might and Magic X: Legacy, that reused all the assets from H6 and some from H5. I was fine with it, as it was ok game, despite the feeling that they were just milking the money from us (when it comes the graphics).

Heroes 7 was announced as the best of series, anniversary and whatnot, so expectations were high. If the game delivered what was promised, I doubt anyone would talk about the reused assets. It could even work to establishing the feel that you are in the same world as in H6 and MMX:Legacy, but that is no longer an option, as the game failed.

Now, I see some members always jump and accuse of blind hate, but I tried the game a couble of days earlier (a friend of mine bought it, and invited me to paly a hotseat), and I re-realized why this game is bad (imo!): AI was really dumb (and this is the understatement), both on map and in combat. Compared to any game before, it was no challenge on highest difficulty, and battles become boring very fast. Skill system is more or less the same thing as in H6: you can see what is the best and go for it. And then, during our 2 hour gameplay, I encountered tons of bugs:
-units cannot be placed in tactics mode (they disappear)
-heroes cannot enter portals (they just stand in it)
-creature just cannot attack, but can move,
-creature cannot attack, move, wait, etc... which blocks the game
-crashes
-sound glitches
-creatures standing on top of each others on the battlefield

These are just some things that I noticed in version 1.8. Now, after you see that, and see the level of asset recycle that happened it makes you wonder where did the money, that was supposed to be used for developing a title that costs 50 euros, went?

As for Ubi branding us haters, well, that is to be expected given the whole thing with H7.

EDIT:
Forgot to add an annoying bug: when you do buy all in town, and there is no space for creatures in your town, some of the ones you bought, disappear
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted April 23, 2016 11:32 AM

alcibiades said:
That's all rosey-red and good, but let's go a level lower - what does that mean, "good games"? I mean, do you think there are ever any developers who set out purposefully to make a bad game? I'm not saying this to say that what UbiSoft does is commendable (most of you should know me well enough to know my stance on this subject), but we also have to be realistic about how things work in real life.

Well yeah, in real life you have basically two kinds of gaming companies and that is the ones that produce quality and respect their consumers and care about their playerbase such as CD Project RED, Triumph or Larian for a few examples, and you also have EA or Ubisoft having different practices. So by "good game" I mean "gamedesign made by people knowing what they are doing and not a bugfest at release", and such games exist so why not for Heroes.
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted April 23, 2016 01:08 PM

Karanshade said:
HC is for SYSTEMATIC BLIND H7 bashers only.


And this statement bites, you know? During the development cycle, with the beta's (as well as just post release), there have been numerous discussions that dissected the game. That identified good parts and identified bad parts - and for the bad parts, there were discussions on what UbiSoft could do to improve the game. Why the things that didn't work, didn't work and what was missing to make it work. It was also a time where members of the development team actively participated on the website - but they usually didn't go into those indepth discussions and analysis threads.

In fact, those threads were mostly ignored. Both by the developers and the people who loved the game alike. The people who saw the rot behind the wallpaper were being ignored and it left a rather bitter taste in their mouth. They saw the game go down the drain and no matter that some people love the game, sales figures and player reviews are all far below that of previous titles. That's not hating, those are cold hard facts. The game could have been so much better than what it is now, something that the "haters" have been trying to get across the board since early development. What we have now is a mediocre game at best, according to those sales figures and Steam activity gauges.

At least with Heroes 6 you had many topics about campaign walkthroughs or general faction playstyles. I have yet to see any of those for Heroes 7. That can't be because of "haters" driving off "lovers", it's because the game in and of itself simply isn't a jewel in the crown of the Heroes' series.

In Dutch we have a saying that literally translates as "they've heard the bell toll, but have no idea where the clapper is". Basically it means they got an idea (a next Heroes game), but they have no idea on how to shape it - something Erwan himself has even admitted at some point.

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted April 23, 2016 01:16 PM

Karanshade said:
As one of my firend stated , don't go to HC , it is  whiner community now.
You don't say...

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted April 23, 2016 01:31 PM
Edited by EnergyZ at 13:45, 23 Apr 2016.

Karanshade said:
I'm glad ubisoft got the balls to tells you in your face what me and my friends found out months ago.



What was that? Let me smell...

Oh yeah, an incredibly bad business attitude. Since when did you hear that a developer would brand a group of people as haters and expect to make a profit out of it?

I mean, fine, if you like the game. But other people respect other qualities of the game.

Besides, if you look at this, this would mean devs have just tagged more than half of people that played Heroes VII as haters. Maybe Ubisoft has balls to do so, but this just digs the Might & Magic franchise into a bigger grave, into which they will all fall.

Karanshade said:

.if I don't like a game , I m not sure I'd be posting about it for months.I can't understand how the ten active people in this thread are actually functionning ? is that some sort of needed recognition ? Going nt a site and bash a game you don' t even play days after days ? borderline psychopathic for sure.



Whatever you say. As said, we have our own qualities of the game we wish to see improved and are discussing about major and minor things. If you can't understand that, either try to read or don't be here at all. For comments like the one above are far from constructive. I know some of us were not constructive and discuss in a polite manner, but that's due to the frustration towards Ubisoft, Limbic and MM team being piled all up. Why, I am fairly certain you encountered certain bugs, some of which have made a very negative impact on the game.

You? You can be happy as you want with the game, while the rest of us are happy we have 50 kept safe in our pockets.

Karanshade said:

As one of my firend stated , don't go to HC , it is  whiner community now. As an acronym , I can only agrees that it reflects the quality.

A place to take a dump.



Oh really? By using your "firend's" words, you just became part of a dump. You can thank your friend later.

Sassiness aside, the Steam forums aren't better, either, so they are dump as well, huh?
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