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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 24, 2016 05:45 PM |
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I think the Eureka change is great - actually it's a good way to introduce more realism into the research thing. I mean, in reality research hasn't worked, like, I want to build this or that wonder or reach X tech asap - people didn*t know what a discovery would lead to, and a lot of them were random or based on "things bhappening". Which is what the game does now. Found a city on a coastal hex, and voila, Sailing is that much more ATTRACTIVE to research (attractivity lies in a relative short research time).
It's a very player friendly way - you may follow "opportunity", which is so much mbetter than research with a fixed goal in mind.
Having two different research areas based on a different resource is pretty amazing as well, as is the political card system. It feels involved; things matter, and you can tweak and adjust things more or less all the time, depending.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted October 24, 2016 06:52 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Different leaders make them effectively a different Civ, though, so while it may look strange you have 2 Greeces, they are different enough and also behave differently.
Does not matter, if they add more leaders and I am sure they will I do not want random sticking me with, say, three Frances. I will not know I have three Frances until I meet them all so it will be too late to quit. Then I have to deal with messages informing me France is doing something, which France, who knows. It is not a horrible problem but I would much rather have three different factions.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 24, 2016 07:11 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
I think the Eureka change is great - actually it's a good way to introduce more realism into the research thing. I mean, in reality research hasn't worked, like, I want to build this or that wonder or reach X tech asap - people didn*t know what a discovery would lead to, and a lot of them were random or based on "things bhappening". Which is what the game does now. Found a city on a coastal hex, and voila, Sailing is that much more ATTRACTIVE to research (attractivity lies in a relative short research time).
It's a very player friendly way - you may follow "opportunity", which is so much mbetter than research with a fixed goal in mind.
Having two different research areas based on a different resource is pretty amazing as well, as is the political card system. It feels involved; things matter, and you can tweak and adjust things more or less all the time, depending.
Well, I recall you on realism in games from the Heroes threads and your view was that it's besides the point, but now I see you using it as a basis for argumentation. That's a bit contradictory.
Sailing would already be more attractive to research just because you built a coastal city. No one will ever consider building a port because of a research bonus, they'll do it primarily for its strategical importance and that's all the reason they need. In that sense, Eureka is a redundant incentive to do things which you would do anyway for better reasons than pursuing a research bonus.
What's the opportunity behind it? You will found cities anyway, you'll conquer barbarians anyway, you'll discover continents anyway, you'll form diplomatic ties with other players anyway, it's a matter of course for playing the game. Those are not opportunities as much as they are a given, they will happen and when they do there's enough reason to exploit them for the strategical benefits they bring. A bonus over that is just unnecessary, not exactly opportunistic either.
Also the bonus itself is bothering me, why would it be half of the research cost? Isn't that just ridiculous? Maybe incremental bonuses would've been better, but if the opportunistic mentality was really at base, then perhaps the event system from Civ 4 would've been better instead.
So for now I'm not convinced about this feature.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 24, 2016 07:48 PM |
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When I say "realism", what I mean is actually the UNrealism of the research trees before VI that is bothering me. When I play a space game I can live with that because people can research with abstract goals in mind. But 3000 BC? I think, NECESSITY dictates things. And opportunity.
I interpret the boosters as "events that spark increased interest". Sure, this system might be adjusted, fine-tuned and so on, but I think it's a brilliant idea to encourage situational research, and situational research means variations in research, and variations are good. I have a feeling that the 50% research you get is necessary in order to really go for that instead of just repeating the same research path over and over again. (And looking at the district thing and the increased importance of terrain that seems to be a main theme of VI, making the game more variable.)
Keep also in mind that V was in a very bad state at release in terms of content - VI is way ahead here, and it*s a lot of time for changes, additions and adjustments.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted October 24, 2016 08:04 PM |
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What kind of game in 2016 still uses the arrow keys for scrolling!?
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted October 24, 2016 09:51 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 21:51, 24 Oct 2016.
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You can toggle on mouse border movement, but that does not let you move up and down, for me anyway. Really though just click and drag.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted October 25, 2016 02:14 PM |
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I think it's about time they make the nomadic civ's actually nomadic and introduce a system for cityless factions.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted October 25, 2016 05:46 PM |
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I heard some complaining on scrolling. WTH? What was wrong with a generic mouse scrolling? 
Other than that, the game looks very appealing and gamers are majorly pleased. I'm especially happy about the comments that it does not feel like a "beta game" that takes 2 more expansion packs to feel "full" - instead, it allegedly feels like a finished game already.
And we live in such times that this is actually refreshing.. 
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 26, 2016 03:38 PM |
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After some more play hours, I figured what the Eureka feature is all about - it's purpose is to create a different game pace depending on play style / decisions / environment. It's not that bad either, suddenly the 50% bonus makes some sense. But I do wonder if it could've been implemented better than this.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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tSar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted October 26, 2016 06:52 PM |
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Doomforge said:
I heard some complaining on scrolling. WTH? What was wrong with a generic mouse scrolling?
Other than that, the game looks very appealing and gamers are majorly pleased. I'm especially happy about the comments that it does not feel like a "beta game" that takes 2 more expansion packs to feel "full" - instead, it allegedly feels like a finished game already.
And we live in such times that this is actually refreshing..
The map doesn't move when you move cursor to the border until you activate the option, but then you can either go horizontally or vertically (few people have reported one or the other, for me it's vertical). So you need to use the arrow keys to move around lol
EDIT:
AAAAAALSO:
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 28, 2016 05:24 AM |
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Okay, I'm convinced, this is a great Civ game.
The District system is insanely good, I can't get enough of it. The way buildings correlate with the environment / wonders / other districts brings up a whole new level of planning depth. Now I have to consider map placement like never before and the look-ahead gymnastics I have to play in my head are challenging and fun.
The Eurika system aims to give each session a different gameplay pace depending on circumstances, and that's quite game changing for replayability. For example, you might get scouted early by a barbarian and its camp starts amassing for an invasion, and since you would build up some army to deal with it, your military researches receive a significant boost. But you might not, leaving you more room for building and exploration, and then the game rewards you that way. All this plays out depending on the interaction between you and the environment and I think it works well.
Policies give you the ability to maintain a form of government that best suits your interests at a given moment in time. Contrasting to the fixed policies in Civ 5, you can change them for a price, so if the circumstances start fluctuating, you could adjust accordingly. I kinda dislike the fact that you can easily switch between them when you research another policy, it kinda makes heavy government changes inconsequential, some rioting system should be placed or something correlating to happiness. But I like the idea behind it and I think it's great.
These 3 changes alone make for an enjoyable gameplay, different from that of its predecessors. And it feels solid, a vanilla version that can stand on its own. I'm really glad this game was made.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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tSar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted October 28, 2016 05:36 AM |
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I am still getting the hang of the districts, apparently you can do some crazy strats, like spam cities as Germany (no national colleges, so no need to build a set amount of cities by x amount of time), keep them at 2 pop so no need for amneties or housing and then rely on the Hanse/industrial zone for hammers, crazy wide-strat with high production and little downsides.
Can't wait to play around with districts some more next week, currently doing an essay so not much time to play, only clocked 9 hours  . Down the line we can do some HC games as well, this new civ seems far shorter (which is pretty good, games don't feel sluggish), so it's more like heroes multiplayer play time 4-6 hours roughly on something like quick and pangea.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 28, 2016 12:48 PM |
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@ Stevie
Yup. Nothing to add, really, except that if it's a great game at release, what can we expect in the future? 
AI might be better.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted October 29, 2016 07:43 PM |
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I met Gandhi and the next turn he declared war on me, lol.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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tSar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted October 29, 2016 07:53 PM |
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Gaaaah why can't you rename cities!!! NUUUU.
At least I can still have a custom religion name thank god, or should I say thank Raptor Jesus.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted October 30, 2016 05:45 PM |
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Looks like a game worth buying.
I will try it out, but after 3 months at least...
reasons:
1. they may fix the AI, I heard it's not too bright
2. they may squash the usual release-related bugs
3. Aztecs will become a free downloadable civ 
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted October 30, 2016 06:48 PM |
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Well, I got the game now and I can give you my first impressions right damn' now.
Civ 6 is a fun game to play, but there's still a myriad of values which desperately require adjustment. I had hoped they'd fix that with the press release, but alas:
- Production values are wonky: Wonders aren't as spammable, meaning you'll have many cities which have one or two wonders. They issue is, hammer costs are absolutely through the roof. Conversely, all units (except the incredibly expensive spies) are very cheap, allowing you to spam them endlessly.
- You're pigeonholed into placing certain districts:
Every city you settle (and you'll want to settle many of them) will need an industrial zone and a commercial hub, just to keep up. The importance of these two districts outclasses every other: Without commercial hubs you CANNOT field a large army, without industrial zones, all of your cities will have crappy production.
- There's little balance between civs:
Germany are absolutely broke as they get a half-priced industrial zone which doesn't interfere with the district cap. Kongo's N'Kisi ability is arguably the strongest in the game. Extra food, production, culture AND you get great merchants (the best great person type in the game right now) at double the usual rate?? that is fricking insane. Aztecs are also great, as they can rush districts with builders (which become laughably cheap by the endgame). I'm not even going to mention Scythia's insane double horseman bonus.
Conversely, France gets one extra spy and double tourism from wonders, which.... um ok? America gets a modern era unique building, good luck with that? England is fairly dodgy too (although their unique harbour is deceptively good)
- Espionage is AWFUL:
So far I've only played as France and they SUUUUCKKKKK!!! largely because Espionage also sucks; Counterespionage is a nuissance because counterintelligence missions take precisely EIGHT turns (less time than to actually conduct an espionage mission!!) and you have to reassign your spy every time.
Spies also die way too easily and cost a LOT of production, and because the AI is horrible @ placing districts, offensive espionage is largely useless.
- Diplomacy is GARBAGE:
This is, imo, the most pressing issue with the game, especially since the devs pride themselves on the "complex diplo system" they've created. Unfortunately, negative modifiers outweight the positive ones in every AI decision. AIs will N E V E R declare friendship unless you've satisfied both leader agenda's and even then, most of them will remain unfriendly because you happen to have different governments or something TRIVIAL like that O_O.
It's not uncommon to have three positive modifiers and the AI still won't accept your delegation/embassy. Tomyris and Gilgamesh are particularly impossible to befriend as there is no incentive to declare friendship in the first place besides having a common ally.
Also, it's nearly impossible to recover from certain negative modifiers. I once beat an Indian missionary in theological combat when it tried to convert my city and before I knew it Russia denounces me because it converted their nearby city AND THIS PENALTY NEVER WENT AWAY EVEN AFTER RUSSIA CONVERTED THEIR CITY BACK TO EASTERN ORTHODOXY AND I SATISFIED BOTH OF PETER'S AGENDA'S. Ugh!!!!
Warmonger penalties are also ridiculously severe (moderate = -16 WUT O_O), so if you find as much as ONE friend in the entire game, you're really lucky. Oh and btw: the AI has no qualms backstabbing you (ie: DOW'ing you when you have an alliance) for no damn reason, ffs, Firaxis FIX THIS!!!
(nb: there is one positive that I like about the agenda system: Gorgo, for some reason, has NO negative modifiers for warmongering, meaning that even if you're a complete snow in the game, she'll probably still like you. Such a weird entity <3)
The AI, while better than in Civ5, is still not good:
I will laud the devs for making the AI more competent in Civ 6 (they skip irrelevant techs and beeline through the era's, they use military engineers well, they take adjeecency bonuses into account when placing districts), they still SUCK @ warfare. This largely due to the fact that the AI doesn't upgrade their units, although upgrades are much cheaper and gold is easier to come by. The game is pretty challenging in the early game, but once you reach mercenaries and machinery, defensive wars are a piece of cake and you steamroll the rest.
The civilopedia is pointless:
This game does a pretty awful job at explaining its new mechanics and you can't exactly look it up in the civilopedia: the search engine only works if you know EXACTLY what you're looking for, and to add insult to injury, there isn't even a back button!!
That auto-unit cycle:
Seriously. GET RID OF IT.
Mostly though, it's an issue of modifiers. They crappy diplomacy modifiers especially ruin my experience because AI is a dick for no reason
Positives however are
- Amenities and housing as growth modifiers. Both are fairly challenging to satisfy if you go wide, which is what you'll want to do
- The game is visually appealing and fun, if not very challenging.
- Barbarians provide an early threat, but it luckily peters out fairly quickly (right before the AI's would start to attack you). I do prefer my barbs like that over the NUISSANCE they were in Civ5 and the absolutely RAGE-inducing pains they were in Civ4.
- My opinion may be a bit marred because I played as France, who are decidedly NOT a fun civ (passive tourism = yawn and espionage is, like I said, boring at best). I have no doubts that a civ such as Sumeria or Russia would be much more fun to play.
- Empire building is very fun and I personally LOVE the logical puzzle of districts/wonders/tile improvements you get to play with. It's weirdly satisfying.
- The early game is incredibly flexible. While this doesn't translate itself in a variable endgame, which it should, the early game decisions you make heavily impact the first third of the game.
If you don't build a holy site asap, you won't get a religion and won't win a religious victory.
If you don't build a campus asap, you'll fall behind in tech.
If you don't try to build the early game wonders ASAP,the AI will grab them and accumulate a lot of tourism in the endgame.
With no encampment, you can be rushed by the AI or barbarians.
With no builders, your housing will suck and youl'l miss out on several eureka's.
Without an early army, barbarians will swarm your base
Delaying your settler production will give you higher pop in yuor capital, but the AI will settle the locations you want.
Now pick three of the above. Congratulations, that's your Civ6 early game! You CAN'T get everything, but fortunately, everyting is useful, depeding on the strategy you can use. In other words, the early game is flexible and fun.
Overall, this game aims to be a 9/10, but it's more of an 7-8 for me, and at its worst as little as a 6. There's still a lot which needs to be patched, but at least it's not a BASIC-ASS 4X wannabe like Civ 5 vanilla was.
~Upward and Onward, peeps~
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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tSar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted October 30, 2016 07:02 PM |
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Quote:
This is, imo, the most pressing issue with the game, especially since the devs pride themselves on the "complex diplo system" they've created. Unfortunately, negative modifiers outweight the positive ones in every AI decision. AIs will N E V E R declare friendship unless you've satisfied both leader agenda's and even then, most of them will remain unfriendly because you happen to have different governments or something TRIVIAL like that O_O.
Gandhi's second agenda is Nuke happy, so you're saying you can't befriend him till the atomic era? That's ludicrous.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted October 30, 2016 07:35 PM |
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Salamandre said:
How many civs in your game and what's the turn duration for AI late game? Is it as slow as in Civ5 where I was never able to finish a game?
2-3 minutes on Huge maps with 12 opponents in the endgame. So, about a third of Civ5's turn duration.
Loading time is slightly faster too.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted October 30, 2016 07:38 PM |
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Edited by Lexxan at 19:44, 30 Oct 2016.
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tSar-Ivor said:
Quote:
This is, imo, the most pressing issue with the game, especially since the devs pride themselves on the "complex diplo system" they've created. Unfortunately, negative modifiers outweight the positive ones in every AI decision. AIs will N E V E R declare friendship unless you've satisfied both leader agenda's and even then, most of them will remain unfriendly because you happen to have different governments or something TRIVIAL like that O_O.
Gandhi's second agenda is Nuke happy, so you're saying you can't befriend him till the atomic era? That's ludicrous.
After nuking someone:
Gandhi hated me from the beginning although I never DoW'd anyone. So, i figured that it might be clever to elim him before he could build nukes and use them on me  (ironically earning me the friendship of gorgo and the hatred of everyone else lol)
Edit: i started a new game and this time I rolled Brazil!! CARNIVAL FOR ALL!!!
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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