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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 381 pages long: 1 50 100 150 200 250 ... 276 277 278 279 280 ... 300 350 381 · «PREV / NEXT»
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 19, 2017 07:27 PM

I have created a Lore Thread for H5.5, that will explain some lore related changes in next version and helps understanding the skill system better. Translators are recommended to read this thread to prevent inconsistencies.

MMH5.5: Lore Thread
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Lutscha
Lutscha

Tavern Dweller
posted September 20, 2017 03:53 PM

Question

Hi, I love your mod but I have a question regarding adding the new hereos to old maps. I usually play a slightly modded I Am Legend version from SirGauvain: https://uploadfiles.io/rtf3e

I don't know how to add the new hereos. If I go into the overview, I can mark all the hereos, but it doesnt't change anything. is that possbile at all?
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 20, 2017 03:58 PM

open the .h5m you posted as a zip archive, then open the map.xdb
file and scroll all the way down to

<AvailableHeroes>
 ..very long list        
</AvailableHeroes>

Delete this entire section and only leave this:

<AvailableHeroes/>
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Lutscha
Lutscha

Tavern Dweller
posted September 20, 2017 05:02 PM
Edited by Lutscha at 17:08, 20 Sep 2017.

I did it and now I can't select any hero at all.

EDIT: Nevermind, I did not see the small change in your line, now it works, thank you!
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 21, 2017 10:26 AM
Edited by Nargott at 11:02, 21 Sep 2017.

Skeggy said:
magic-magic combos and anti-magic-magic combos define meta-alignments

In terms of gameplay, is this a key, super-feature of MMH5.5, ore just one of the others features which may be include and may be not?
I mean to idea of giving shatters to all classes ("Shatterization").

There are many points that I have clear answers, such as:
+ like 24 classes (but for another reason that author have, not for diversity fraction gameplay - player can hire foreign heroes for it, but for diversity of global gameplay)
+ like some technical improvements (for example, 0 atb after casting mass spells)
+ like great visual and interface work (so I don't detail it and other pluses, because there is nothing to discuss, but respect)
+ like external manual program
+ like overall work because it is careful and detailed (even if I disagree with some points which I criticize below, but different people have different opinions and objectively it is high-quality work)
+ like idea of simplifying the skillwheel by the rejection of external requirements for perks (and I thought of it first)
+ like concrete reshuffling of fraction magic guilds (and have the same idea independently of MMH5.5)
~ idea of class skills instead of racial skills is interesting (but have clear advantages and disadvantages)
- don't like many extra heroes with dublicating specializations and unstylized (sometimes ugly) icons from the other games (if you want more heroes, look at NHF project where many new specializations were created)
- don't like small class differences between different fractions (for example, Paladin ~ Warden)
- don't like idea of only PureMight/PureMagic/SomethingAmorphous classes instead of original 6 combos of pair parameters (6 > 2); this is concept of Heroes 3 which are poor at area of skills/classes, in comparison with Heroes 5
- don't like 8-10-12% chances of skills because there are no big difference between them (also 4% skills are not really rare)
- don't like small perks like "+2 of 3.33% parameter", 20% evasive or 5% offence/10% counterstrike per skill (because there are other strong perks, and because strong perks are good in the speedrace of heroes' development, no-one likes speedraces at slow speed)
- don't like small abilies of creatures (as +1 agility or 3.33% charge) because they don't give strong tactical sense at combat and don't make it more interesting
- don't like very long game for 3+ months because there is nothing to do on the map (yes, you may place many epic strong guards but at the first 1-2 months a player finished his development, having upgrading all army, having top spells and having all important skills/perks for his strategy, so it's no need to fight with neutrals instead of fight with an opponent immediately)
- don't like big levels 25+ and extra slots for skills (because of explicit redundancy, reducing overall variability and penalty of 3.33% parameters which are needed at high-in-the-sky levels)
- don't like enormous big mana (200+) at high levels and non-actual parameter of Knowledge because of this (this is magic parameter and no external bonuses of perks will return magic power to it)
- don't like epic armies of 10-100 dragons per stack because there are boring (there is no tactical advantage to have scaling of 100 dragons per stack instead of 1-2 dragons per stack), non-realistic (for Heroes combat with abstract stacks and archery distance), non-roleplaying (relative to one Hero as "unit") and breaking balance (making some perks/abilities/spells useless); real epic will be if controling several tens or hundreds stacks but not controlling equal amount of dragons in simply one stack (and this is not real and very difficult to control, that's why epic is epic, not light/simple battle); 10 dragons / 100 dragons / 1000 dragons - what is the difference?
- don't like classes with only one magic school (because no variants of magical growth, is Combat skill compensate it? Combat is very poor, weak skill which have some useful perks but not for a later game when they becomes weak also)
- (don't like original Shatters because at which skill there are up to 6 levelups for weakening enemy potential one magic school only!)

But Shatters in MMH5.5... It's difficult to give a clear assessment, because having selective class Shatters is counter-play against opponent, which he may counter with having that Magic your hero can't counter principially by his class. Is it practically interesting game mechanics, or Shatters = more elementals only? Can this mechanics play at "low" levels (up to 20)? Or there are inferior skills that are taken when all best/interesting skills are taken already? I have no time to check it myself, because it takes too much time (6 months games which maps had oriented are very long) and because some other subjective dislikes may influence to give non-fair assessment to this concrete aspect of gameplay.

Why I ask this question - because I'm developer of the own modification, and want to understand if this idea is brilliant and worth taking into consideration, or it is ordinary and is not worth changing the balance (if there are no subjective wishes to do so). What about 24 classes without Shatters?

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 21, 2017 10:54 AM

Shatters are fine on the principle that they might turn out a good choice or they might be wasted skills. But personally I dislike them simply because they are like rock-paper-scissors. In the original game only orcs had trouble dealing with dark magic or light magic on might-heavy factions(other shatters were imo negligible) so introducing the appropriate shatters was reasonable. No other factions had a major weakness against a specific magic skill so I don't see them as strictly necessary. But that is not to say they are not balanced either so it comes down to whether you like them or not.
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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 21, 2017 11:01 AM
Edited by dredknight at 11:03, 21 Sep 2017.

@Nargott,

I have a question for you which answer will explain some of the questions you have regarding difference between classes.

Lets say we find a way to add a ninth city, which currently is Sanctuary.
It should also have Might, Balanced and Magic class.

As (almost) each class is defined by a unique secondary skill what will the unique skills for those three new classes?
The problem is that we are currently out of secondary skills already (death knight - knight, Reaver - heretic).

Basically you need to conform with the principle that classes skills should also match the lore of the faction in some way.

For example - sanctuary resembles eastern cultures and philosophies. This definitely filters out Urgash oriented secondary skills (dark, destruction, gating).

What if we add 10th town? basically we have the same pool of skills to choose from where the hero count increases.
Unless there is way to add new skills it is inevitable that hero builds will become repetitive.

The problem that you point does not come from MMH55 but from original ToTe. We just do not have enough skills.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 21, 2017 11:12 AM
Edited by Nargott at 11:48, 21 Sep 2017.

@Elvin: thanks for answer, I'm interesting to gather as many opinions/voices about Shatterization as possible to be objective!

@dredknight: I don't like any new towns, but concrete Nagas is good (and the best candidate), especially if you give them some wonderful units from Heroes 3 Fortress and if you create high-quality visual models for them (lizardmen, serpents, basilisks etc.).

In my mod I imagine each class as not one class skill, but unique combination of three front skills, so it's difficult for me to determine Nagas in your terms of the one class skill.

Quote:
The problem that you point does not come from MMH55 but from original ToTe. We just do not have enough skills.

But you don't need to add duplicating heroes, why 1000 heroes is better than 100? Where is a number after achieving it you say "enough"? The same is about adding new fractions.
24 classes are good not because 24 > 8 but because 3 > 1 (per fraction). In my mod I follow "24 > 8" (giving as much difference between them as possible) but the main reason of adding new classes is "3 > 1".

If you say about Shattering skills, are they simple placeholders as you don't know what to place here? Or interesting high-grade skills? What is the main question about Shatters.

If you say about difference between classes then I had show you example of how make 24 classes different and explained it (at Russian forum). The problem is not common available skills set (which is the same in TotE), but profile class skills with good chances to have it. And - numbers in parameters growth (there are 6 combinations of pairs of profile stats + 2 variants for each (primary/secondary) = 12 variants). In WGE I made 24 variants, but use 40/30/20/10 profiles which is good for 10% stats but bad for 3.33% in your modification (lesser difference between 40% and 30%).

If you want to have more classes, they must be more specialized than original, otherwise there will be duplicates. In TotE there are 8 profile skills (8-10-15 but 15% is front) and 4 rare skills + 1 racial skills. In MMH5.5 there are the same number of 8+1 profile skills (and rare skills are less rare = less unique). In WGE I made 6+1 profile skills (+6 rare) and have no visible problems with unique. But 6+1 profile skills are targeted to low levels, because for high-in-sky levels you want to have more profile skills to have good choice. This is why many classes AND unique classes AND high levels are not incompatible together. But you may improve uniqueness of classes better even in your system. By different parameters and more profile percentages of skills (not 12-10-8-4).

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 21, 2017 11:43 AM
Edited by magnomagus at 11:45, 21 Sep 2017.

@Nargott: Since there is so much you don't like that also applies to the original H3 and H5 games, I wonder why you are even interested in HOMM?, you sound more like a chess player to me.

A HOMM game is build up form 3 components:

1. tactical (Combat map)
2. Adventure, exploration
3. economy management

H55 is generic platform mod, supposed to improve all 3 components not just the single component you are interested in.

Quote:
but at the first 1-2 months a player finished his development, having upgrading all army, having top spells and having all important skills/perks for his strategy.


You are talking about your personal map design, depending on parameters you are nowhere near that in H55.

Quote:
don't like 8-10-12% chances of skills because there are no big difference between them (also 4% skills are not really rare)


Skills are not supposed to be rare, every class is supposed to have 12 skills that are really fitting for it. So game is about tactical choice, not lottery.

Quote:
Why I ask this question - because I'm developer of the own modification, and want to understand if this idea is brilliant and worth taking into consideration, or it is ordinary and is not worth changing the balance (if there are no subjective wishes to do so). What about 24 classes without Shatters?


Shatters work well in 8 skill system, but not in 6 skill. In 8 skill system you have easily room for shatter skill and logistics, without interfering with your 6-plan. In my opinion 8 is always better than 6, because skills don't need to be fully developed so additional variation is created by development plans that include poorly developed skills.

Also nothing prevents you from modding all perks to make them not only useful for countering magic.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 21, 2017 11:52 AM
Edited by Nargott at 12:40, 21 Sep 2017.

Quote:
@Nargott: Since there is so much you don't like that also applies to the original H3 and H5 games, I wonder why you are even interested in HOMM?, you sound more like a chess player to me.

In Heroes 5 I like combat and skills. Like combat very much because of ATB system.
In Heroes 3 I like strategic gameplay, but at fast times relatively to your opinions (no 3+ months). PvP not PvE (PvE is only entertainment while player develops his build but not the target).
And yes, I was chess player in past

Quote:
Skills are not supposed to be rare, every class is supposed to have 12 skills that are really fitting for it. So game is about tactical choice, not lottery.

It means that you don't want to specialize your classes = no variants to be unique at skills.
But at parameters they are.
If you have 2% rare skills, it simply means that skills are rare, i.e. you can't build your hero around them unless you get it randomly and surprisely (for an opponent too).

Quote:
Shatters work well in 8 skill system, but not in 6 skill. In 8 skill system you have easily room for shatter skill and logistics, without interfering with your 6-plan. In my opinion 8 is always better than 6, because skills don't need to be fully developed so additional variation is created by development plans that include poorly developed skills.

Thanks for answer, it means that Shatters is not brilliant skills for including them as main skills.
In original TotE (near 20 level) I often have 5-plan, 6-plan was rare as 4-plan.
8 slots are necessary only if you have 30 levels or more (and in MMH5.5 you have).

Mathematically better is half of the all skills, i.e. 6.
But really if you make not random build but meaningful conceptual build, for his full realization you need in only 3-4 concrete skills.
For example, Offense + Luck + Leadership for rush, or Sorcery + Enlightenment + 1-2 Magic Schools for pure magic build.
And to have variations of creating this build you must be limited at lesser skills (that's why I like low levels).
For example, in WGE Logistics have also rushing combat perks, and I can build many variants of rush:
1) Offense + Luck + Leadership
2) Offense + Luck + Logistics
3) Offense + Leadership + Logistics
4) Luck + Leadership + Logistics
5) Offence + Luck
6) etc.
And at low levels there are additional subvariants because you can't have all 3 expert skills with full perks (if choose racial + 3-plan) and must choose.
If I have high level 20+, I can easy build full-rush without any variation, so it's boring.
That's why I think that having 3-4 skills (including racial) is enough, and 5-6 are just in case.
What about high levels and 8 slots? It means that the main type of your build (principled skills) will never change. All variants are "tuning" as additional skills, like Shatters, Logistics etc. Yes, there are variants, but not principled variants.

So, I explain why don't like some things and like another things. Don't count it as offer for changing metaplay of MMH5.5.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 21, 2017 12:39 PM

Quote:
It means that you don't want to specialize your classes = no variants to be unique at skills.


No, if the total pool of secondary skills is bigger, there are more possible combinations of 12 skills. Therefore more variation in wheel designs.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 21, 2017 12:50 PM
Edited by Nargott at 12:57, 21 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
No, if the total pool of secondary skills is bigger, there are more possible combinations of 12 skills. Therefore more variation in wheel designs.

Total pool is 26 skills, but many racial/shattering skills.
I think that the main problem is not a size of pool, but that ~12 skills are enough to express all thematic variants. If there will be 20 thematic and interesting skills instead of 12, I think that you will wish to have them all to your classes (for maximal variants of development) and the picture will not change.
Best illustrations are Shatter skills. You formally have extra skills, but could not think up anything unique and interesting there (and I too, and everyone too), only adding extra creatures at towns. But it is not strong idea for any new potential skills

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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 21, 2017 12:54 PM
Edited by dredknight at 12:55, 21 Sep 2017.

Nargott said:

What about high levels and 8 slots? It means that the main type of your build (principled skills) will never change. All variants are "tuning" as additional skills, like Shatters, Logistics etc. Yes, there are variants, but not principled variants.


I think you are looking hero builds in a very abstract way.
What I mean is that you look at them in 2 aspects only which are:
- theoretical skill choice a.k.a. comparing classes secondary skill wheels
- End game hero development a.k.a. what builds will they have at the end stage of the game prior to the last PvP battle.

What you forget is that class build is very dependent on faction creatures specifics - if they are mostly slow but tough, fast and squishy, ranged but lot init, have specific abilities or spells.

Hero build development throughout the game should favour synergy between hero and the units and their abilities so you can expand as fast as possible on the adventure map.

Also some adventure map specifics can enforce secondary skill choices that quite a lot deviate from the "best pvp build" choice simply because it will allow faster adventure map exploration and/or stronger economy on behalf of which you can win the game. It is not only the hero skills that are important here but a combination of everything including the adventure map.

@Nargott, a rule of the thumb that I use when I do not like something is to start doing it for extended period of time so I can get to know it and see if I my subjectivity was based on wrong facts or it was just not for me. I know it sounds counterproductive but is actually not.

Human feelings and cognition by default are not working in alliance.
An example: Lets say you like playing football so you go and play it (high school years). And you do it often. No matter how good you are you will never be competitive professional if you do not practice your skills like speed, tackling, field awareness, strength and endurance.

Those are skills that are not improved by playing football but by doing other exercises that work on them.
- Speed - running
- Strength - flexing
- tackling - endurance hitch hiking, jogging
- field awareness - combination of keeping your mind relaxed and  focused during times of high physical exhaustion.

Not to mention that all that also depends on what you eat, how often you eat and so on. It does not sounds as the same fun in high school.

Same goes for starcraft e-sports professional levels. Every gamer likes playing games but when it comes to professional level you need to force practice different possible game outcomes. When you do that 100 times in a row on a daily basis it is not so fun anymore.

There was one person I do not remember that said "Keep the things you like for Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights".

It means that the it is better not to make money of the things you like because a good business relies on what is relevant - not what you like. So even if you started making money on things you like and somehow nobody needs them anymore it will be very hard for you to switch because of the personal bias.

So coming back to heroes - I really would like you to have some games on an adventure map against someone just to get the feel out of it and how it goes as the discussions we have have started to become repetitive where we can't progress after some point. I believe you compare things to a very structural pattern (that you have build WGE on) and this way you put less importance on things that are actually really important (hero build is strongly dependent on faction specifics, adventure map properties and enemy hero class).

Cheers



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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 21, 2017 01:00 PM
Edited by Nargott at 13:10, 21 Sep 2017.

dredknight said:
What you forget is that class build is very dependent on faction creatures specifics - if they are mostly slow but tough, fast and squishy, ranged but lot init, have specific abilities or spells.

Yes I know that you don't like to hire foreign heroes, but player can. So fraction creatures can play under ANY class, not under 3 native classes.
And having class skills another than racial skills, you only encourage hiring foreign heroes, because they have working class skills (not racial fraction skill).

Quote:
So even if you started making money on things you like and somehow nobody needs them anymore it will be very hard for you to switch because of the personal bias.

I understood the hint, this is a private opinion, I did not propose to change anything only because I personally do not like it.

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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 21, 2017 01:07 PM
Edited by dredknight at 13:09, 21 Sep 2017.

Nargott said:
dredknight said:
What you forget is that class build is very dependent on faction creatures specifics - if they are mostly slow but tough, fast and squishy, ranged but lot init, have specific abilities or spells.

Yes I know that you don't like to hire foreign heroes, but player can. So fraction creatures can play under ANY class, not under 3 native classes.


True but you are still dependent on faction specifics.
Also the idea of each faction to have its own heroes is not made by us. It was like this since Heroes 1. Unfortunately the execution was poor and you can see this very strongly in heroes 3 tournaments where people mostly go for Orin, Crag Hack and Mephala.
So why is this issue in our mod as it is rooted in all other games and mods? We just made the overall heroes strength balanced between each other.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 21, 2017 01:14 PM
Edited by Nargott at 13:35, 21 Sep 2017.

dredknight said:
True but you are still dependent on faction specifics.
Also the idea of each faction to have its own heroes is not made by us. It was like this since Heroes 1. Unfortunately the execution was poor and you can see this very strongly in heroes 3 tournaments where people mostly go for Orin, Crag Hack and Mephala.
So why is this issue in our mod as it is rooted in all other games and mods? We just made the overall heroes strength balanced between each other.

It's not a problem.
I wrote only about uniqueness. If I had start with Inferno, I have less than 24 unique classes for play, there are some similar classes. Because my units and fraction are already determined.
If you like to play only native heroes, there is no problem, because you have only 3 variants always.
Are native heroes primary (often used) and foreign - secondary (rarely used)? Yes. So I speak about have more that rarely variants if you have more unique classes. This is less important compared to many other aspects but one of the point you may improve the game if you wish.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 21, 2017 01:28 PM

Quote:
Yes I know that you don't like to hire foreign heroes, but player can. So fraction creatures can play under ANY class, not under 3 native classes.


No, from perspective of 'good' faction all 'bad' faction classes will have -2 morale penalty, and 'friendly' classes (ranger & knight) will still have -1 morale penalty.

Also suitable hero has to show up in week 1 in tavern out of massive pool of useless heroes.


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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 21, 2017 01:41 PM
Edited by Nargott at 13:56, 21 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
No, from perspective of 'good' faction all 'bad' faction classes will have -2 morale penalty, and 'friendly' classes (ranger & knight) will still have -1 morale penalty.

Also suitable hero has to show up in week 1 in tavern out of massive pool of useless heroes.



-2 or -1 morale is not serious limit or difference, especially 40% morale, especially if I choose magic build or play undeads. And if my class skill (no racial) is working.

Quote:
Also suitable hero has to show up in week 1 in tavern out of massive pool of useless heroes.

I.e. the difference between Paladin and Warden is availability in tavern? This is good reason for having 3 native classes instead of 1, but this is not the uniqueness between all 24 classes that I wanted. You may have 12% offense for warrior (native skill) and 4% offence for mage (foreign skill), but there are no 2 unique skills.

I specially had wrote about your modification:
Quote:
objectively it is high-quality work

+
Quote:
so I don't detail it and other pluses, because there is nothing to discuss, but respect

So look at my critical opinion as more variants to improve (if you wish improve any of that aspects), not as arguments how I dislike it, because I never wrote that I dislike your work

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 21, 2017 01:55 PM

many specializations (blood maidens for haven) will not work so difference is -2 morale and also -1 strong perk.

..and because of tavern this is all theoretical anyway.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 21, 2017 02:01 PM
Edited by Nargott at 14:17, 21 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
many specializations (blood maidens for haven) will not work so difference is -2 morale and also -1 strong perk.

..and because of tavern this is all theoretical anyway.

Yes, I understand that you are looking for excuses how its normal and not opportunities to improve it, because this concrete aspect is not important for you.
I wrote also there are "clear answers" for me (except Shatters), so discussion about "it's ok or not ok" is meaningless because I do not doubt these moments and write this is only my private opinion. But find opportunities to improve is meaningful if you want to continue constructive discussion about that.
Or you chan write "this is not important" if you don't want to change anything at this aspect (this is normal to ignore some aspects, all aspects can't be important simultaneously).

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