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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MMH5.5] Skill System Design
Thread: [MMH5.5] Skill System Design This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · NEXT»
magnomagus
magnomagus


Promising
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 13, 2015 07:04 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 01:58, 09 Dec 2015.

[MMH5.5] Skill System Design

This thread will show the details of the classes/skills and spells system for Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5. The new system will be a greatly improved version of the older RPE skill system. It will have many newly programmed skills and specializations, as well as balance fixes to existing skills. Complete ingame skilltrees and a reference manual for all skills are present to create a much smoother gaming experience compared to the old RPE modification. MMH5.5 will have much more heroes and specializations than H5 or H3. It will in fact have all missing specializations from heroes 3 converted and balanced to heroes 5 as well as various new creature specializations. The default pool will be 144 heroes, 18 per faction, 6 per class.

MMH5.5 on Facebook

Main philosophy

-3 classes per faction might/magic & balanced
-Randomized, but with high enough probabilities to get the desired skills.
-Thematic branching, ‘it makes sense’
-26 secondary skills and 174 perks for maximum variation  and flexibility
-No useless perks, no ‘must have’ perks.
-relatively weaker perks are prerequisites to relatively stronger perks.
-Some black sheep in paths to ultimates to prevent forcing player in ultimate build.
-Symmetric organization for easier memorization
-6 or 8 skillslot option to swap between S and XL map gameplay.
-Smart witch huts ask questions and sometimes offer a second chance for a desired skill.

Why 3 classes per faction instead of 2?

I actually tried 2 classes a long time ago during RPE development, but there was no sensible way to decide which class would start with what skill? using racials is impossible with M&M classes because some of those are heavily might or magic focused. The 3 class system offered the possibility to use a harmonious H4 like system where every skill is equal and belongs to a class.

Why is change to the skillsystem needed?

TOE has some major structural balance issues:

1. Light and dark magic don’t require much spellpower to be just as good or better than destructive/summoning, therefore magic heroes have a major disadvantage late game.
2. The skill system is riddled with useless perks, overpowered perks, chaotic branches and casino probabilities forcing players into buildups they may or may not get dependant on luck.  

In TOE flexibility exists on paper but in reality it is often non-existant. Example: Dungeon. You start with irresistible so you must have destruction. Destruction forces you into sorcery, enlightment and luck (because of warlock’s luck). So your buildup is laid out for you. Destruction works best with invisibility and creatures that stay alive longer. Your upgrade pattern is laid out for you. The mage guild with sum+dest cannot support weak spellcasters. The only choice that remains is are you going to fill the last slot with attack or logistics? MMH5.5 is built on the idea that you must be able to play Dungeon ‘Crag Hack’ style, but also exactly the same way as you used to play it and any style that lies in between. Gain everything, but lose nothing.

The 8 skillslot option didn't work out well in TOE because the skilltree was half might/half magic causing all the classes to become Jack-of-all-Trades. MMH5.5 doesn't have this issue since every class has a 100% focused skilltree. A might hero cannot start a sorcery/destructive project on the side etc.

New Experience Graph, Get more skills and play longer!

Lvl 25 requires rougly the same amount of experience
Lvl 30 requires 475k instead of 785k
Lvl 35 requires 4.2M instead of 15M
Lvl 37 requires 16M instead of 75M
Lvl 39 requires 83M instead of 463M
Lvl 40 requires 200M instead of 1300M

Shatter skills and mage guilds

While shatter skills for might heroes add a lot of variation to the game, in the old RPE mod there was still the issue that 3 guild levels would be unused if the main hero wanted to primarily focus on shattering magic instead of casting it. In MMH5.5 this issue can be fixed by new mechanic. Might heroes focusing on shatter magic can build mage guilds to summon elementals (once per week) in the town garrisons. The more shatter skills they master on expert level the more elementals they summon. The elementals can be used as support units for secondary heroes, defending towns or added to the main army if the hero really has a lot of summoning power. The process is fully automated and a message flies off the hero to see how many elementals are summoned and when it has happened.

Spell System

In MMH5.5 the late game superiority of might heroes will be gone for good, no matter how long the game takes. The game uses much smarter algorithms to calculate the actual bonuses and turn times of light and dark magic spells. This will cause magic heroes to add more defense with endurance spell or give more initiative with the haste spell. Various summoning and destructive spells will also be finetuned to scale better into late game.

-Skill boosting or lowering spells have their bonuses calculated like 4/4/6/8 + 0.2 per Spellpower.

Example: A hero with expert light magic and 15 spellpower will boost defense with endurance by 8 + 15*0.2 = 11

-Slow and Haste boost initiative as: 10%/15%/20%/25% + 0.5% per Spellpower

Example: A hero with expert light magic and 15 spellpower will boost initiative wit haste by 25 + 15 * 0.5 = 32.5%

-Buff and Nerf durations are calculated like 1+0,15* Spellpower instead of 1+1*Spellpower. This allows for much more dynamic spellcasting, spells don't last the entire combat and don't become a replacement for regular might skills.

Spell Balance

In MMH5.5 Spell Damage will scale much better into late game, Using the following Spell power multipliers at expert level, every damage spell will have maximum utility without overshadowing any spell that is supposed to be better.

wasp swarm - 10
stone spikes - 12
land mines - 12
eldrith arrow - 14
decay - 14
word of light - 14
fist of wrath - 15 (with low base)
ice bolt/circle - 16
firewall - 18
lightning/fireball/meteor shower - 20 (reference point , same as TOE)
chain lightning - 32
deep freeze - 40
implosion - 50

All multipliers at lower levels will be adjusted accordingly.

Balance changes to other spells:

-Firewall moved back to summoning level 4 with some more damage (but less then fireball). This is to provide the full magic classes from light+summoning factions with some more direct damage doing potential. Since all destructive casters have a straight way to ignite firewall also became somewhat redundant in MMH5.5
-Cleansing - chance increases with spellpower, has almost no influence on heroes but makes it much more balanced for large creature stacks.
-Horde’s Anger = 0.8 damage per creature (was 1)
-The initiative, speed and skills of the conjured phoenix are more spellpower dependant.
-Fire elementals have +3 initiative and -8HP to improve effectiveness of elemental skill branch
-Earth elementals exchange magic proof for aura of magic resistance to improve their effectiveness as summon.
-Frenzy cannot last for 2 turns and costs 20 mana.
-Puppet master costs 30 mana.
-Divine Vengeance lifted to level 5
-Word of light and Curse of the Netherworld lowered to level 4
-Phantom Forces lifted to level 4
-Summon Hive lowered to level 3
-Rune of charge lifted to level 2
-Rune of Revive lifted to level 5
-Rune of magic control lowered to level 1
-Rune of dragon form lowered to level 4

State of project

Everything is ingame. Please take in mind many things are still subject to change and balance testing and most parameters will be user-customizable.

Ingame Manual

















Skill Details

EDIT: I cut these down to thumbnails, because they need to be big (click on them)

Balance changes are highlighted in red or green, in case of offense the excessive power of retribution is more evenly moved to the base skill.















Heroes & Specializations










____________
MMH5.5 Update RC9a!!! | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Promising
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 13, 2015 07:06 PM

reserved

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dredknight
dredknight


Supreme Hero
posted May 14, 2015 10:40 AM

Very nice!

One thing that I see is that some of the skill descriptions need to be changed. Here is the list of those I have found:

(attack) Power of speed - "haste is casted with advanced mastery 25%" should be the new value. Will it include SP 0.5% bonus?

(dark magic) spirit link - "The necromancer spends only half turn to chose target" should be Hero instead.

The other stuff seem nice!!

Did you change creature specialization style for everyone?
Instead of + attack/def for that creature you get population.

This makes very good sense balancewise!

Very good switch with the veteran perk from what it was to what it is!



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magnomagus
magnomagus


Promising
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 14, 2015 11:27 AM

Sharply noted

Quote:
Did you change creature specialization style for everyone?
Instead of + attack/def for that creature you get population.


I made all the 'missing' creature spec, so its a few per faction. But i tested they cannot be used for farming with secondary heroes. They are only powerful on the main hero.

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lotihoti
lotihoti


Famous Hero
posted May 14, 2015 01:17 PM
Edited by lotihoti at 13:19, 14 May 2015.

I love the design so far.
Something to mention:

A master of gating and sorcering demonlord should be able to learn summoning Magic. Just my thoughts about it.
All the other things look extremly nice.

And:
Do they work allready? If so - nice Job!

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dredknight
dredknight


Supreme Hero
posted May 14, 2015 01:57 PM
Edited by dredknight at 14:10, 14 May 2015.

magnomagus said:
Sharply noted

Quote:
Did you change creature specialization style for everyone?
Instead of + attack/def for that creature you get population.


I made all the 'missing' creature spec, so its a few per faction. But i tested they cannot be used for farming with secondary heroes. They are only powerful on the main hero.


yes I have played a lot H3 world tournament and the spec there is similar. It is like this for the creature:
- +level/tier rounded down number of creatures to population in all castles
- the creature in that hero army receives 25% bonus health in battle.

I didnt like the creature spec in heroes V because they put the focus of the battle out of balance. Example:

level 26 hero gives +13/13 to tier 1/2/3/4/5 creatures.
Memorable mentions Cerberus, sylvan archers, gremlins, warmongers, centaurs.

This greatly increase PvE grinding (Warmongers, sylvan archers, centaurs, gremlins). I have seen Telsek to kill 30-35 thanes
on week 3 where he uses warmongers + epxert leadership + bloodrage perk +50 rage per morale trigger. And this is something I saw on very hard map played with RPE mod.

Do it as you wish but I think it will be great if they just get more troops instead of making the creatures SuperSayanish strong!

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esvath
esvath


Known Hero
posted May 14, 2015 04:43 PM

Is it possible to make Recruitment works without the Hero needs to be in the town on Day 7? It makes Hero less useful imho, and herding them to cities at week ends are tedious processes.

To balance this, maybe making Recruitment depends on Leadership skill levels? So Basic Leadership + Recruitment will give +3 Tier 1 units automatically in the capital, while Advanced Leadership + Recruitment will give +2 Tier 2 etc.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Promising
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 14, 2015 04:50 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 16:58, 14 May 2015.

Quote:
A master of gating and sorcering demonlord should be able to learn summoning Magic. Just my thoughts about it.
All the other things look extremly nice.


I see the logic, but if they have no access to the spells they can do more with the other choices.

Quote:
yes I have played a lot H3 world tournament and the spec there is similar.


Are you talking about a mod because I thought they were considerably more overpowered in h3?

Quote:
Is it possible to make Recruitment works without the Hero needs to be in the town on Day 7? It makes Hero less useful imho, and herding them to cities at week ends are tedious processes.


Yes this was an idea I had, but currently shelved because of workload. I need to make it work only on the first hero that gets it, otherwise I have a farming problem with sylvan and dungeon.

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esvath
esvath


Known Hero
posted May 14, 2015 06:04 PM

magnomagus said:

Quote:
Is it possible to make Recruitment works without the Hero needs to be in the town on Day 7? It makes Hero less useful imho, and herding them to cities at week ends are tedious processes.


Yes this was an idea I had, but currently shelved because of workload. I need to make it work only on the first hero that gets it, otherwise I have a farming problem with sylvan and dungeon.


Is it too much work to apply "Governor system" like in Heroes IV? That way, a particular hero's Recruitment bonus will only apply to a particular city.

---

Moving to other skills: I am uncertain about Expert Shatter skills summon elementals in cities. While I understand that you need to make Mage Guild useful for heroes with Shatter, I failed to see the connection between Shatter and summon elementals?

What if heroes with Shatter + knowledge of specific spell have additional benefit? Maybe whenever an enemy cast that spell, the hero has a chance (determined by the hero's level/proficiency in Shatter)  to "deflect" the spell, as if the hero casts it?

Shatter Light + knowledge of Bless --> % chance if enemy hero cast Bless, a random unit in the hero's army is Blessed instead.

Shatter Dark + knowledge of Curse --> % chance if enemy hero cast Curse, a random unit in the enemy's army is Cursed instead.

Shatter Destruction + knowledge of Fireball --> % chance if enemy hero cast Fireball, the spell will be deflected and hits the enemy's army.

Shatter Summoning + knowledge of Summon Elemental --> % chance if enemy hero cast the spell, the elemental will be under the hero (not the enemy) control.

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dredknight
dredknight


Supreme Hero
posted May 14, 2015 07:11 PM
Edited by dredknight at 19:16, 14 May 2015.

esvath said:


What if heroes with Shatter + knowledge of specific spell have additional benefit? Maybe whenever an enemy cast that spell, the hero has a chance (determined by the hero's level/proficiency in Shatter)  to "deflect" the spell, as if the hero casts it?

Shatter Light + knowledge of Bless --> % chance if enemy hero cast Bless, a random unit in the hero's army is Blessed instead.

Shatter Dark + knowledge of Curse --> % chance if enemy hero cast Curse, a random unit in the enemy's army is Cursed instead.

Shatter Destruction + knowledge of Fireball --> % chance if enemy hero cast Fireball, the spell will be deflected and hits the enemy's army.

Shatter Summoning + knowledge of Summon Elemental --> % chance if enemy hero cast the spell, the elemental will be under the hero (not the enemy) control.

This is already here and it is called magic mirror.
What you propose is way too overpowered.
In PvP shatters do good enough to reduce the tier 1,2,3 and 4 spells by -2.
in PvE shatters reduce the School levels of the monsters as well which decrease damage/efficiency too.


magnomagus said:
dredknight said:

yes I have played a lot H3 world tournament and the spec there is similar.



Are you talking about a mod because I thought they were considerably more overpowered in h3?


Yes it is a mod for H3 made by russians that balances the game. They used it for tournaments.

Magic heroes are still weaker. there is no doubt in that. I just gave the 25% hp example as a reference. My idea was to change all unit spec to the way you do it now - increase population instead of give attack/def.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Promising
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 14, 2015 08:04 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 20:10, 14 May 2015.

Quote:
Is it too much work to apply "Governor system" like in Heroes IV? That way, a particular hero's Recruitment bonus will only apply to a particular city.


That's even better, but very complex, I think that is actually the reason Nival made it like this.

---

Quote:
Moving to other skills: I am uncertain about Expert Shatter skills summon elementals in cities. While I understand that you need to make Mage Guild useful for heroes with Shatter, I failed to see the connection between Shatter and summon elementals?


I think I agree with you 50%, because there is a connection between mage guilds and elementals being magical constructs. This can also be seen as a textual issue. Nival came up with 'shattering' as a quick fix for an important problem, but in reality this is not a skill, and it is unclear why the barbarians were able to do the thing they are doing = shattering magic. Since H5 stronghold is based on tribal folklore the idea must be shamans having some sort of control over nature, which could be connected to summoning elementals, but this is not reflected in the name of the skill. On the positive side the current idea makes finally those neutral conflux mapobjects useful.

EDIT

@Dredknight:

I understand, but recently the idea also got a lot of negative sentiment: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=41148
I think therefore it's safer not to overdo it and keep something for everyone.

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dredknight
dredknight


Supreme Hero
posted May 14, 2015 09:24 PM
Edited by dredknight at 21:27, 14 May 2015.

I am only troubled for some very strong offensive units on might hero combination - heaven archers, sylvan archers and centaurs.

I have seen battles on Tote between Sylvan and barbarian.
Where the outcome of the battle was decided depending on whose archers are gonna shoot first.

regarding the rest, on a second thought (like warmongers)will be balanced after the reduction of the 3-stack-spec-creature change.

the hatred in the thread against those specializations is not met with any real alternative so far so it doesnt count ;D.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Promising
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 14, 2015 09:58 PM

Quote:
I have seen battles on Tote between Sylvan and barbarian.
Where the outcome of the battle was decided depending on whose archers are gonna shoot first.


I have implemented the no random ATB fix in MMH5.5 so at least now you will know who that is going to be.


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dredknight
dredknight


Supreme Hero
posted May 14, 2015 10:07 PM

magnomagus said:
Quote:
I have seen battles on Tote between Sylvan and barbarian.
Where the outcome of the battle was decided depending on whose archers are gonna shoot first.


I have implemented the no random ATB fix in MMH5.5 so at least now you will know who that is going to be.




Why? that was fun actually.
Now it makes it static like H3 more or less .

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Promising
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 14, 2015 10:49 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 22:50, 14 May 2015.

I recall it was considered an urgent balance issue in multiplayer duel and the fix was well received when the byte was finally found. I could compromise on a softer 10-15% if some don't like it, but you should try it, it doesn't feel like H3.

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=36538&pagenumber=1

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esparado87
esparado87


Hired Hero
posted May 14, 2015 10:50 PM
Edited by esparado87 at 22:59, 14 May 2015.

No priest/cleric for Haven faction?

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esvath
esvath


Known Hero
posted May 14, 2015 11:29 PM

On Shatter conjure elementals:

I understand your argument, but still it felt ... wrong to have heroes with Shatter summon elementals. I hope you can come up with other idea or at least take into consideration my "specified magic mirror" proposal.


magnomagus said:
Quote:
I have seen battles on Tote between Sylvan and barbarian.
Where the outcome of the battle was decided depending on whose archers are gonna shoot first.


I have implemented the no random ATB fix in MMH5.5 so at least now you will know who that is going to be.


No random at the beginning of combat? I can live with that even though I think lower randomisation is better.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Promising
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 15, 2015 11:48 AM
Edited by magnomagus at 11:51, 15 May 2015.

Quote:
No priest/cleric for Haven faction?


The heretic is the haven priest class, so it is 'bad'. The reasons were availability of portraits & model (most important), Light/Dark mage guild, connection with red lineup and 'good' cleric wasn't much different from paladin.

Quote:
I hope you can come up with other idea or at least take into consideration my "specified magic mirror" proposal.


It is not possible to affect creature stats on the battlefield with scripts, so that puts a lot of ideas off the table. In case of your idea you should also take in mind the game is already loaded with many magic defense skills and it would require a complex magic mirror per spell registration system.

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lotihoti
lotihoti


Famous Hero
posted May 15, 2015 02:32 PM

Hmmm but you can affect hero stats - so it is possible to affect creature stats as well (at least i saw a function (SetHeroStat - if i remember right).

You could change it, that if the hero has shatter Magic, he gets a Bonus on defence, attack, movement, init, hp, etc.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Promising
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 15, 2015 09:10 PM

Quote:
You could change it, that if the hero has shatter Magic, he gets a Bonus on defence, attack, movement, init, hp, etc.


My first idea was  to add some simple defense boosts to the shatters to make them more generally useful, however this is kinda boring and there were already a lot of perks with skill boosts.

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