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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This thread is 45 pages long: 1 10 20 30 ... 34 35 36 37 38 ... 40 45 · «PREV / NEXT»
stf911
stf911

Tavern Dweller
posted May 25, 2018 06:36 AM

P4R4D0X0N said:
The best skills/talents are always passive ones... Imho it's kinda useless to push skills like resistance (HotA) into the PvP direction at all. That wouldn't nerf any "must have" skills compared to "nice to have" skills. What I want to say... there are only a few really powerful talents in the game, the goal should be to bring all other talents to a equal level to have "agony of choice"...


Completely agree. That was my mentality when modifying the skills. The game's fun-factor should take priority over PVP balance for competitiveness.

P4R4D0X0N said:
As for estate 4k gold is OP for just one turn in town, garrisoned the whole week maybe for an amount of at max 1500gold.


It would work just like one of the the Legion artifacts, but instead of getting increased growth at the end of the week for that town, you would get a pile of gold.
So essentially, with Expert Estates you would get 4000 gold per week, if that hero can be garrisoned on time. If we look at the big picture, 4000 / 7 = 571 gold per day, so it's a little more than the regular estates, but requires more planning.
Keep in mind there are heroes with the "+350 gold per day" spec., which they can benefit from without restrictions, as soon as they are hired.

Thanks for your feedback! I hope this clarifies the skill I had in mind a bit.

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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted May 25, 2018 09:05 PM

granted and I understood your suggestion about estates... but I still think for a secondary skill it would be much too powerful to get 4k gold every week while staying in town + additional 500 per day from estates itself. even the 350g bonus is just 2450g per week and it's a specialisation -> means should be more powerful than a secondary skill. Anyway, actual estates is still super powerful with +500 gold/day (3500 per week, thats 3 gold mines! or 1 town and 1 mine!) additional 4000 would mean 7500 thats even 500 gold more than you would get from the "golden goose" combined artifact... this can't be balanced. Anyway... as for the static +350 gold I would scale it too since static skills are super boring to play and useless to pick the hero at all. granted gold is always nice but it has absolutely no benefit to level that hero at all... and thats the biggest problem here tbh.

What I'd like to see for Inferno would be a gold gain hero like lord haart, I personally would change him aswell to 7.5% per level on estates since you have to level him to get the benefit... imho for gold and for lots of leveling that sounds reasonable. He won't be picked anyway in PvP 'coz of his secondary.

Lord Haart:
actual balance on lvl20: (1.00 + 20 * 0.05) * 500g = 2.00 * 500 = 1000g/d = 7000 per week
actual balance on lvl30: (1.00 + 30 * 0.05) * 500g = 2.50 * 500 = 1250g/d = 8750 per week

new balance on lvl20: (1.00 + 20 * 0.075) * 500g = 2.50 * 500 = 1250g/d = 8750 per week
new balance on lvl30: (1.00 + 30 * 0.075) * 500g = 3.25 * 500 = 1625g/d = 11375 per week

this amount would be okay, since it's super hard to get beyond lvl 20+... BUT -> 10% would be too much for my taste.
10.5k/w on lvl 20
14k/w on lvl 30

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 25, 2018 09:34 PM

I am pretty satisfied with the Estates skill, except that basic and advanced feels quite weak compared to expert.
Now +350 gold heroes and +1 resource heroes are pretty boring because the bonus is static, you probably don't want them as main heroes either, as they work just as well as secondary heroes.

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FrothFrenzy
FrothFrenzy

Tavern Dweller
posted May 26, 2018 04:14 PM
Edited by FrothFrenzy at 21:01, 26 May 2018.

I think Estates is perfectly fine as it is. It's a secondary hero skill for a map that's expected to go into a longer game. You only need 4,600 experience to guarantee the expert level, which should be achievable by the availability of minor fights, learning stones and treasure chests, something a secondary hero would mostly be picking up anyway. +350 gold specialty is a decent bonus, too - it pays itself off in 7 days (or less - if you also account for the troops you got), and each turn after that is just profit for you.

As for the Forge faction, technology was always a part of the Might & Magic universe - it was like that from the start. However, I don't think adding it is a good idea. HoMM never advertised itself with having sci-fi elements in the background and adding them out of the blue would indeed look out of place for a series that was pure medieval fantasy up to that point. Discussions about it were divisive in 1999., 2002. and 2006. as they are now. I'd rather see a faction that's mostly agreeable for the whole community than something that would cause a fervent 50/50 split.

Regarding the Wizard progression after level 9, it's not a significant change, mostly flavor. I don't think it would break anything if the progression was adjusted.

Unrelated to the above, a few suggestions regarding allied play:

1. Last time I played, a player that was lower in priority during simultaneous turns passed through the red player's hero even though the path was otherwise blocked completely. This did not reset the turns and I'm not sure if this was intended. I think the end of simultaneous turns should trigger if one player was to pass through the end of turn position of another player's hero.

2. Resuming simultaneous turns if all players agree to it should be allowed via an option or a command. Sometimes there is a lapse in communication and players intersect one another by accident. Loading the game again is a solution but takes time unnecessarily. I can see some borderline cases where this would be useful in a 1v1, too. If both players see they won't be meeting for a while when e.g. one player defeats a scout for another player, but the main heroes are still many days apart.

3. Spectator mode to see allied fights would be nice to see. Very often it happens that other allied players take no fights during a turn while another player takes two or more. This way you could at least have something to watch while waiting for that one player to pass the turn.

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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted May 26, 2018 09:56 PM
Edited by P4R4D0X0N at 22:02, 26 May 2018.

phoenix4ever said:
I am pretty satisfied with the Estates skill, except that basic and advanced feels quite weak compared to expert.
Now +350 gold heroes and +1 resource heroes are pretty boring because the bonus is static, you probably don't want them as main heroes either, as they work just as well as secondary heroes.


Easy imho for the "boring" +1 bonus... just let it scale... maybe only ever 5 levels for +gold and ever 10 levels for +1 resource

as for gems i would add an additional modifier for more.

Example: Sephinroth is +1 crystal on lvl1... formula (1,0 + 0,15 * LvL) rounded always down until a whole number
(1,0 + 0,15 * 1) = 1 crystals on lvl 1 (1,15)
(1,0 + 0,15 * 7) = 2 crystals on lvl 7 (2,05)
(1,0 + 0,15 * 10) = 2 crystals on lvl 10 (2,5)
(1,0 + 0,15 * 14) = 3 crystals on lvl 10 (3,1)
(1,0 + 0,15 * 20) = 4 crystals on lvl 20 (4,0)

this formula counts for: Calid, Rissa, Sephinroth, Andal

for Saurug somem ore gems since gems aren't that valuable:
(1,0 + 0,225 * 1) = 1 gem on lvl 1 (1,15)
(1,0 + 0,225 * 5) = 2 gems on lvl 5 (2,125)
(1,0 + 0,225 * 9) = 3 gems on lvl 9 (3,025)
(1,0 + 0,225 * 14) = 4 gems on lvl 14 (4,15)
(1,0 + 0,225 * 18) = 5 gems on lvl 18 (5,05)
(1,0 + 0,225 * 23) = 6 gems on lvl 23 (6,175)

for +350 gold it should be a linear value without rounding down. Dunno about the formulayet.

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Gertos
Gertos

Tavern Dweller
posted May 28, 2018 01:07 AM
Edited by Gertos at 01:11, 28 May 2018.

Hi everyone I would like to share with my opinion about game which I find very unbalanced. To me there are 2 main problems which make it. Spells and huge advantage might heroes over magic ones.

Why are Spells so unbalanced? Because even if you have spellbook full of Spells you will choose mass slow or mass haste or other 1 lvl spell. These spells would be fine if only accessable for magic heros. For now Crag hack or Tazar can use them as easy as wizards or warlocks. Why? Because it cost only 5 mana and doesn't require even basic wisdom skill.

My idea is to highly increase cost of most powerfull spells like slow (20 mana?). Also change level of these spells (for example slow - lvl 3, shield lvl 2) so might hereos would need a little more effort to get such spells and if so they can have problems with their manapool. I am sure you still would pick this spell out of others during fight but you also wonder to choose other spell.

How about spells like fireball, inferno, frostring? They are totally useless now. Just give them some more damage/point of power and they would be as same usefull as meteor shower or implosion.

Next thing is about balancing hereos. Try to compare Galthran's specility and Xarfax's +3% additional damage from fireball, which means you deal 309 damage instead of 300...really? Change bonus to 15% it would be good at start.

I would also suggest some changes to secondary skills. Hota made some changes but I still feel some should be done like misticism or sorcery.

What do you think about it?
Is a chance Hota gonna make some of these changes?


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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted May 28, 2018 01:56 AM

P4R4D0X0N said:

Easy imho for the "boring" +1 bonus... just let it scale... maybe only ever 5 levels for +gold and ever 10 levels for +1 resource


I really like this idea.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted May 28, 2018 09:49 AM

Gertos said:
Try to compare Galthran's specility and Xarfax's +3% additional damage from fireball, which means you deal 309 damage instead of 300...really? Change bonus to 15% it would be good at start.


Xarfax's specialty works slightly different from what you think. Check this link, where I detailed the effects of all specialties. In particular, for Xarfax, the formula is as follows:


Bonus = ROUND_UP(SpellEffect * 0.03 * TRUNC((Hero Level) / (Creature Level + 1)))

So while it's 3%, it's 3% per Hero level, scaling against creature level. Assuming a Xarfax at level 30, casting Fireball against a Tier 2 creature, the spell would deal 30% extra damage.

I do agree it's still low, but it's not a flat 3%.
____________
The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker

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Gertos
Gertos

Tavern Dweller
posted May 28, 2018 01:06 PM

Indeed, I forgot to note that. Anyway even if it scales with hero level, bonus is poor.

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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Adventuring Hero
posted May 30, 2018 09:00 PM

stf911 said:
trenbolone said:
But this is SF and mixed of fantasy and it looks good.

Dont understood you guys that your minds cant acepte this thing.Its so stupid. SF allways was in Might and Magic and Heroes continue this trillogy its the same world but like another game ther you heave a RPG and Heroes its Strategy game thats it

Look how another games SF looks good with fantasy: Wizardry,Dawn of War ther is many examples of this

If you think SF dosent suit Heroes than you should play Might and Magic

Too me and many fans its ideal combination of ad Forge to Heroes 3


Adding the forge town (as well as dwellings and other adventure map objects for it) would change the flavor of the game, bringing it closer to the MM games.
I don't think it's a bad idea, but you have to realize that currently, the most SciFi thing in HOMM is the Skyship grail structure, and even that stands out a little.
The best solution, I think, is to go the route of HOMM4 and change its style to be more steampunk (see Dragon Golem), but even so, it's a big discussion, just like it was back in the day.

I think less controversial and more concise ideas have a bigger chance of being implemented, such as:

Gandalf196 said:
Wizards! [...] for some bizarre reason their scaling after level 10 is this: 30/20/20/30 (instead of the traditional 20/20/30/30 for magic heroes). Why? Maybe only JVC knows, but I'd place my money on error; there's no reasonable justification for it, they're not battle mages or hybrid class. I firmly believe this should be corrected.[...]


Everyone who checked the HCtraits.txt knows that the Wizard stands out with his weird scaling and common sense dictates it should be changed to 20/20/30/30, just like it is for some other heroes.
Of course a full overhaul of the scaling system might be in order, but this is a change that most people can agree with or at least accept.

My 2 cents.


Oh, boy, that would be amazing. Back in 2005, I was really glad to see Heroes V ditching this obtuse post level 10 scaling that makes classes all look the same. It is a shame, however, that the successor could not manage to capture an isthmus of the predecessor's charm, that inefable ingredient that we cannot describe, but we all recogzine as deeply significant.

Certainly, altering the scaling, so that Wizards, for instance, would be 10/10/40/40 for the rest of the game, would entail a plethora of changes spell duration should be proportional to a fraction (maybe one third) of spell power, maybe spells such as slow could have a fixed duration, but their effect would be increased also by a fraction of spell power (+1 speed for every 5 spell power), knowledge increasing spell points regeneration (as in Heroes V), not to talk about the secondary skills that would need a rework. That's my 2 cents too, but I must say I am very optimistic about Horn of the Abyss' future; they've delivered high quality content and did not refrain from introducing all-new stuff as spell research, securing both functionality and aesthetic coherence.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted May 30, 2018 11:49 PM

Gandalf196 said:
I must say I am very optimistic about Horn of the Abyss' future; they've delivered high quality content and did not refrain from introducing all-new stuff as spell research, securing both functionality and aesthetic coherence.


They lost a player doing that. Well that + Resistance gone + Huts etc. Sure doesn't matter for them, but the whole "h3 expansion/addon purist" thing is not there for me anymore, I do not agree with that statement any longer. It's another mod now, of great quality sure, but still I find it too different starting from 1.5 to consider it a true expansion like before. I wish them the best for the future.
____________
He JVC taught us how to use skeletons. -Ghost

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 31, 2018 12:02 AM

Well I play without spell research and with the original Resistance skill.
I also reverted some things back to how they originally were, like building cost etc.
Sure HotA has done lots of great stuff, but there are some things that should'nt be changed.

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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Adventuring Hero
posted May 31, 2018 01:17 AM

Galaad said:
Gandalf196 said:
I must say I am very optimistic about Horn of the Abyss' future; they've delivered high quality content and did not refrain from introducing all-new stuff as spell research, securing both functionality and aesthetic coherence.


They lost a player doing that. Well that + Resistance gone + Huts etc. Sure doesn't matter for them, but the whole "h3 expansion/addon purist" thing is not there for me anymore, I do not agree with that statement any longer. It's another mod now, of great quality sure, but still I find it too different starting from 1.5 to consider it a true expansion like before. I wish them the best for the future.


I am sorry you feel this way. I've enjoyed every single innovation the team has brought to Heroes III. In fact, to me it feels like 3DO has recovered from bankruptcy, has acquired the rights to the Might and Magic series from Ubisoft and is back on track, polishing their masterpiece even more.

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Lth3
Lth3


Adventuring Hero
posted May 31, 2018 07:24 AM

Gandalf196 said:
I am sorry you feel this way. I've enjoyed every single innovation the team has brought to Heroes III. In fact, to me it feels like 3DO has recovered from bankruptcy, has acquired the rights to the Might and Magic series from Ubisoft and is back on track, polishing their masterpiece even more.


well said

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted June 01, 2018 12:28 AM

I like the Witch Huts and truly don't see a problem with them, at the most it saves a few steps from some secondary hero you're ready to dismiss, since (be it PvP or SP) no one will ever visit an original witch hut for the first time with an important hero.

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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted June 02, 2018 03:20 PM
Edited by P4R4D0X0N at 16:10, 02 Jun 2018.

Gertos said:

My idea is to highly increase cost of most powerfull spells like slow (20 mana?). Also change level of these spells (for example slow - lvl 3, shield lvl 2) so might hereos would need a little more effort to get such spells and if so they can have problems with their manapool. I am sure you still would pick this spell out of others during fight but you also wonder to choose other spell.


I would go a different path... I would add the ability to chose what level of earth magic you like to use at once. This means -> click on spellbook with perfect earth magic, select slow not a new window pops up where you may select the intensity of the spell.
without earth magic: 15% of movement speed (5 Mana)
basic earth magic: 25% of movement speed (6 Mana)
advanced eath magic: 50% of movement speed (10 Mana)
expert earth magic: 50% of movement speed to all enemy units (8 Mana per Stack) (56 vs full army, if not enough mana -> starting to until mana is out)

other solution for expert earth magic: OSC * NU / 1 + 0,01 * (HL + WIS + SP))

OSC = original spell cost
NU = number of enemy units
HL = Herolevel
WIS = Wisdom
SP = Spellpower

Example:
slow on a hero with expert earth, lvl 20 vs 7 units and 20 wisdom, 20 spellpower

6 * 7 / 1 + 0,01 * (20 + 20 + 20) = 42 / 1,6 = 26,25 = 26 Mana

same example with different Numbers:
slow on a hero with expert earth, lvl 10 vs 7 units and 5 wisdom, 8 spellpower

6 * 7 / 1 + 0,01 * (10 + 5 + 8) = 42 / 1,23 = 34,14 = 34 Mana

another example:
slow on a hero with expert earth, lvl 30 vs 7 units and 25 wisdom, 30 spellpower

6 * 7 / 1 + 0,01 * (30 + 25 + 30) = 42 / 1,85 = 22,70 = 22 Mana

This buffs every magic hero... even more wizards and witches on high level, finally some use for magic heroes! Anyway actual formula is kinda unpleasant imho. so I try a different aproach:

OSC * NU / 1 + 0,5 * (HL*HC) + 0,01 * (WIS+ SP)

new parameter
HC = Hero Class (1 for might, 2 for magic) heroes

same as last example (magic class, lvl30):
6 * 7 / 1 + 0,05 * (30*2) + 0,01 * (25 + 30) = 42 / 1+(3+0,55) = 9,23 Mana

example (might hero, lvl20, 15 spellpower, 8 wisdom):
6 * 7 / 1 + 0,05 * (20*1) + 0,01 * (15 + 8) = 42 / 1+(1+0,23) = 18,8 Mana

still too low cost for might heroes in my opinion:

change of parameter:
HC = Hero Class (1 for might, 2,5 for magic) heroes

new formula:
OSC * NU / 1 + 0,025 * (HL*HC) + 0,01 * (WIS+ SP)

example (might hero, lvl 20, 12 spellpower, 8 wisdom)
6 * 7 / 1 + 0,025 * (20*1) + 0,01 * (8+12) = 42 / 1+0,5+0,2 = 24 Mana

example (magic hero, lvl 20, 16 spellpower, 20 wisdom)
6 * 7 / 1 + 0,025 * (20*2,5) +0,01 * (20+16) = 42 / 1+1,25+0,36 = 16 Mana

looks promising so far... i should check it with mathcad how the graph evolves, let's see what u think first before I put it in mathcad


Gertos said:

How about spells like fireball, inferno, frostring? They are totally useless now. Just give them some more damage/point of power and they would be as same usefull as meteor shower or implosion.



I agree here

Gertos said:

Next thing is about balancing hereos. Try to compare Galthran's specility and Xarfax's +3% additional damage from fireball, which means you deal 309 damage instead of 300...really? Change bonus to 15% it would be good at start.


lets calculate (Specialty Fireball 20 Spellpower 20 Level, Expert Fire):
(60 + 20 * 10) = 260 (with 20 Spellpower)
with specialty:
260 * 0.03 * 20 / 2 (lvl1+1 creature) = 338 Damage
260 * 0.03 * 20 / 8 (lvl7+1 creature) = 281 Damage

Imho damage is missing at least vs high level creatures, another option: 1/2 or even no cost for the spell.

bloodsucker said:
I like the Witch Huts and truly don't see a problem with them, at the most it saves a few steps from some secondary hero you're ready to dismiss, since (be it PvP or SP) no one will ever visit an original witch hut for the first time with an important hero.


Well I don't see a problem here either... It was just missing in the original like lots of other features in the source that were skipped or even written wrong. Just to finish the game early.

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Gertos
Gertos

Tavern Dweller
posted June 02, 2018 04:47 PM

Quote:
I would go a different path... I would add the ability to chose what level of earth magic you like to use at once. This means -> click on spellbook with perfect earth magic, select slow not a new window pops up where you may select the intensity of the spell.
without earth magic: 15% of movement speed (5 Mana)
basic earth magic: 25% of movement speed (6 Mana)
advanced eath magic: 50% of movement speed (10 Mana)
expert earth magic: 50% of movement speed to all enemy units (8 Mana per Stack) (56 vs full army, if not enough mana -> starting to until mana is out)


This stuff may be fixed in many ways. In my way changes should't be so much drastic. I would not add too many new things, just change some digits. It's all the game needs to be improved.

I think all most used spells should be more costfull and their levels should be changed as well. These are easy and slight changes but can balance game a lot.

Anyway everything depends on Hota team

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 05, 2018 09:10 PM

As a map maker I would find it very interesting if you could make some new random dwellings for the map editor, the difference would be that they could also generate neutral creature buildings.

Neutral creature buildings won't normally appear, unless map maker has placed a specific neutral creature building on the map.
I think it would be much more interesting if they could appear randomly and would give more use to neutral creatures.

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avatar
avatar


Promising
Famous Hero
posted June 05, 2018 09:15 PM

phoenix4ever said:


Neutral creature buildings won't normally appear, unless map maker has placed a specific neutral creature building on the map.



Not true. Neutral buildings appear in neutral zones. Some RMG template has configured such neutral zones it's a matter of lack of such templates.
____________

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 05, 2018 09:31 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 21:31, 05 Jun 2018.

Well how can I make them appear randomly, as a map maker, then?

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