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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This thread is 54 pages long: 1 10 20 30 40 ... 43 44 45 46 47 ... 50 54 · «PREV / NEXT»
P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted August 18, 2018 09:33 PM
Edited by P4R4D0X0N at 21:36, 18 Aug 2018.

If it would work for thief guild it would be nice. Anway... the point is... you can't really expect when you get checked by an enemy player. Imho thats the reason why this skill is so damn situational and luck dependent that it already is useless in the first place. In turn based gameplay it may work but only if you are the player in that always acts first... red is superior to blue... is superior to brown. If it would work for several rounds. lets say 2-3 it would be useful again even for players that would be in a worse position.

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted August 18, 2018 11:23 PM

later on in the game, when you expect to meet and have a lot of free spell points, you can cast this spell every round for only 2 mana, just in case you wish to be masked all the time

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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted August 19, 2018 10:56 AM

Yeah late game the isn't any problem with that skill I agree... but early on and on small maps this would be different. But we will see what HotA team will come up in the long awaited magic revamp. I personally hope for some new spells and some more effective spells to balance magic heroes some more.

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stf911
stf911

Tavern Dweller
posted August 20, 2018 11:55 AM
Edited by stf911 at 11:55, 20 Aug 2018.

I think of making Disguise work as intended and balancing it, as 2 separate things. I also think removing something from the game (or adding something that would change the game rather than improve on what it already does) is a step in the wrong direction.

The spell itself would work fine if only the effect remained until the beginning of your next turn, regardless of color.

If it would make late-game less enjoyable, we'll just have to wait and see (it might make the late game more interesting, for all we know, even if spammed)

The HotA team will likely just fix the spell (if they can) and possibly tweak its mana cost. The simple solutions are usually the best ones.

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analstanley
analstanley

Tavern Dweller
posted August 21, 2018 05:07 PM
Edited by analstanley at 17:15, 21 Aug 2018.

Hi,

Long-time reader, first-time poster. Just gonna post some ideas about making magic heroes a more viable option, and then I’ll probably disappear, never to post again. I’m a fairly casual player, just playing the odd hot seat game when my buddy and I can get together. As it stands, I only choose magic based heroes for the challenge of it, and my friend often makes a point of picking the magic orientated secondary skills, despite how weak they make his hero, because “He’s a bloody wizard!”

I want you to think about the concept of a “powerful spellcaster”, and what that usually means in fantasy games, literature and films. Currently there is nothing to fear when facing a powerful spellcaster. In fact, for the most useful spells (haste, slow, blind, bless, cure, etc), there is no practical difference between a powerful magic hero and a mediocre (or even poor) might hero. In terms of lore, when you face a powerful spellcaster, you should be ‘bricking it’ about the chaos their spells could reap. That is not the case at the moment, and the game is a sadder place for that. Anyway, here’s my 2 cents regarding secondary skill buffs/changes

Elemental Magics – It may sound strange that the first thing I want to do is weaken the elemental magics, but bear with me. Currently, the mass spell casting it too powerful for any mug to use. With only 4 or 5 spell power and expert earth, any crappy tavern barbarian can slow down the entire army of your opposition for most of the battle, forcing a magic hero to have to waste their spell on a counter-measure, rather than being a threat. In a game where creature speed is a really important feature, this seems too much. That kind of conjuring should be reserved for a powerful spellcaster. That is why I would make expert earth/air, etc have mass spells which only work on a small area of the battlefield, a bit like how fireball works, so you can cast slow/haste/whatever on 3 or 4 creature if they are grouped together. The true “mass” spells we currently have would only come with my idea for intelligence.

Intelligence – Should continue to work as it does, but I think expert intelligence should improve any specialist elemental magics to either make them true mass spells, or increase the damage of attacking spells further.

Sorcery – I think expert sorcery should allow the hero to cast and additional spell per combat round. Basic and advanced should work as they do now, but with increased percentages, and then bam! Expert sorcery becomes something which a might hero might begin to fear.

Eagle Eye – Obviously this one has been discussed at great length. If spells can become more of a threat in combat, either by changing sorcery as I’ve suggested, or by improving the spells themselves, then Eagle Eye instantly becomes more useful, although still not strong. I would like it if Eagle worked outside of combat, so you could perhaps learn dimension door or town portal when it is cast in your vicinity. Heck, even visions or summon boat would be nice to learn in that way.

Learning – I really like somebody’s recent suggestion to have learning boost other secondary skills somehow, although I think just increasing the percentages would make it a more worthwhile skill. I also think this should be the skill by which the mana cost of spells is reduced.

There you go. Would love to hear some feedback on those ideas and whether they go too far or not far enough. I really hope the HotA crew continue their great work on this game, and I would love it if they could implement something like this, or anything to improve the plight of the poor old wizards and warlocks of this world

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted August 21, 2018 08:40 PM

analstanley said:
Hi,

Long-time reader, first-time poster.


Welcome .

I like your ideas, especially about Sorcery and I am greatly in favor of your suggestions with respect to the Elemental Magics, so I have nothing to comment on those.

As for the final two:

Quote:
Eagle Eye – Obviously this one has been discussed at great length. If spells can become more of a threat in combat, either by changing sorcery as I’ve suggested, or by improving the spells themselves, then Eagle Eye instantly becomes more useful, although still not strong. I would like it if Eagle worked outside of combat, so you could perhaps learn dimension door or town portal when it is cast in your vicinity. Heck, even visions or summon boat would be nice to learn in that way.


It still doesn't remedy its biggest flaw: the more spells you learn, the less useful it becomes and as soon as you've learned everything there is to learn, the skill becomes absolutely useless. Without a fix to that issue, any fix will remain a bandaid at best.

Quote:
Learning – I really like somebody’s recent suggestion to have learning boost other secondary skills somehow, although I think just increasing the percentages would make it a more worthwhile skill. I also think this should be the skill by which the mana cost of spells is reduced.


Increased percentages won't do much. People did the math on it and it just doesn't add up unless you increase it really significantly - but that makes it overpowered in early game. Furthermore, if the map has a level cap, the skill becomes absolutely useless once you've reached it. Sure, you have the level cap sooner than a Hero without, but that doesn't really matter.

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Djangoo
Djangoo


Adventuring Hero
posted August 21, 2018 09:59 PM
Edited by Djangoo at 22:02, 21 Aug 2018.

Sorcery is fine as it is, but needs a little bonus to percentages to make it more pickworthy. Intelligence is pretty solid choice , good for elemental/resurrect Spam, don't see reason for buffing. Eagle Eye on the other hand is useless and should be replaced/added with a new mechanic that improves Magic.

I personally like the idea of making mass spells harder to get and the idea of a chance for double cast (should not be guaranteed, otherwise  be must pick every game). But with HotA going the route of removing random elements from the game, I dont see it happening.





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Hourglass
Hourglass


Adventuring Hero
posted August 21, 2018 10:32 PM

Maurice said:

Increased percentages won't do much. People did the math on it and it just doesn't add up unless you increase it really significantly - but that makes it overpowered in early game. Furthermore, if the map has a level cap, the skill becomes absolutely useless once you've reached it. Sure, you have the level cap sooner than a Hero without, but that doesn't really matter.


Would it really be that overpowered, even in the early game? Or did you meant that even basic Learning would give something like double experience?

The main problem of Learning is that if you max it out, you've spent 3 of your secondary skill points there. So the skill should give you at the very least 4 levels edge over your opponent. If not, all you have going for is few randomly given primary stat points. That does not justify taking Learning.

So going softly with Learning wouldn't do anything. Scaling such as 10%/25%/50% does look promising when you read it, but in the end it would change nothing.

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RerryR
RerryR


Promising
Known Hero
posted August 21, 2018 11:35 PM

analstanley said:
Hi,

Long-time reader, first-time poster. Just gonna post some ideas about making magic heroes a more viable option, and then I’ll probably disappear, never to post again. I’m a fairly casual player, just playing the odd hot seat game when my buddy and I can get together. As it stands, I only choose magic based heroes for the challenge of it, and my friend often makes a point of picking the magic orientated secondary skills, despite how weak they make his hero, because “He’s a bloody wizard!”

I want you to think about the concept of a “powerful spellcaster”, and what that usually means in fantasy games, literature and films. Currently there is nothing to fear when facing a powerful spellcaster. In fact, for the most useful spells (haste, slow, blind, bless, cure, etc), there is no practical difference between a powerful magic hero and a mediocre (or even poor) might hero. In terms of lore, when you face a powerful spellcaster, you should be ‘bricking it’ about the chaos their spells could reap. That is not the case at the moment, and the game is a sadder place for that. Anyway, here’s my 2 cents regarding secondary skill buffs/changes



Totally agree with this 100%, maybe you should check out my changes I did to address that problem.

Being a casual no pro player who just plays some hot seat games for fun and entertainment I also like to pick wizards. If then my friend decides to play Crag Hack the outcome of the game is pretty much decided (that doesn't matter much we just play for the game itself and not so much for winning). Considering this it would only be logical and easy to significantly buff the wizard class and the respective secondary skills.
The problem with HotA is that it is much more multiplayer/competitive oriented. If you make any radical changes a lot of people will turn away from it (or at least that's my impression I have from reading this forum) and they are not wrong in doing that, because obviously, the balance works somehow in multiplayer. The good players always set the bar in terms of balance for a game and sometimes this goes against the casual player in terms of fun.
On the other side, I think there are a lot more casual players than pro players and they would definitely appreciate these changes to useless skills and whatsoever, so just they can enjoy their game more. Bringing in more diversity and new changes would be great, so I think the HotA devs should listen to what a lot of people here suggest.
 
But I tell you what, it will not happen. I mean let's wait for the magic rework they announced, but I bet it will only be some slight tweaks in numbers here and there. Maybe Mysticism will regain one or two more spell points and Learning will give 5% more experience but that's it. There will definitely not be something like a double cast for wizards, Learning increases the usefulness of other SS, spells scaling with level, making magic specialists somewhat useful or change much about slow and haste. If you waiting for these changes you'll wait forever.

But that's just how it is, no problem. The good news is that you can just go ahead and install ERA/VCMI and try some juicy mods. You'll enjoy the game much more, i promise.    

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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted August 22, 2018 06:19 PM
Edited by P4R4D0X0N at 18:32, 22 Aug 2018.

analstanley said:

Eagle Eye – Obviously this one has been discussed at great length. If spells can become more of a threat in combat, either by changing sorcery as I’ve suggested, or by improving the spells themselves, then Eagle Eye instantly becomes more useful, although still not strong. I would like it if Eagle worked outside of combat, so you could perhaps learn dimension door or town portal when it is cast in your vicinity. Heck, even visions or summon boat would be nice to learn in that way.




Sounds like a "Blue Mage" in Final Fantasy Universe... Thats something that would be damn great. To keep it simple: A Blue Mage in FF may learn spells from Monsters that can't be learned on normal ways. This means in detail... and addapted to HotA -> A hero with eagle eye may learn in addition to it's actual behaviour:

"Blind" from Unicorns
"Fire Shield" from Eefrets
"Weakness" from Sea Witches
"Disrupting Ray" from Sea Witches
"Retailiation" from Griffons
"Resurrection" from Angels
"Protection from ..." from Elementals
"...lots of spells..." from Genies
"...lots of spells..." from Enchanters
"Bloodlust" from Ogre Mages
"Lightning" from Thunderbirds
"Earth Quake" from Cyclops
"Dispel" from Dragonflies


maybe even as new spells (hard to implement):
"Pertify" from Medusas, Basilisks (stronger version of Blind since it works on all enemies)
"Death Stare" from Gorgons (maybe too powerful! Instead of Gorgons in the Formula 10 points of Power are necessary)
"Deathcloud" from Liches (An undead version of fireball)
"Raise Demons" from Pitlords (maybe too powerful!)
"Paralyze" from Scorpitors (stronger version of Blind since it works on all enemies)
"Poison" from Wyverns
"Magic Resistance" from Dwarfs
"Spell Resistance" from Golems
"Anti-Magic Aura" from Unicorns
"Binding" from Dendondroids

If it was for me... I would change the EXP system drastically same as the Level-up system and all secondary skills. I would add in addition to expert "Master" and "Grandmaster" abilities and would limit them to Magic or Magic heroes. While Magic heroes are able to cast Mass spells on "Grandmaster" it is limited to casters while "Offense" on Grandmaster is limited to Might heroes. This would mean tons of balancing but it would even balance the relics from angelic alliance some more, in case oyu get levels much easier.

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FrothFrenzy
FrothFrenzy


Hired Hero
posted August 23, 2018 01:53 PM

Maybe tie in Eagle Eye with the spell research mechanic? As in you get that much more % of spells of the corresponding level offered to you to choose from when researching, rounded down, while that hero is in town (50% is one extra 1-4 level spell, 100% is two or one for level 5, etc.). The idea is to train a dedicated researcher in order to save resources when looking for a specific spell.

One change would be to increase the expert percentage to 70% or higher so you can either have a specialist or all of the artifacts to get to 100%. Another could be to allow access to level 5 spells for specialists in addition to their % bonus, when the skill is on expert level. There are seven specialists in the game so getting one shouldn't be too hard.

This wouldn't solve the problem of the skill killing itself with its own success, but it would at the very least offer some utility. It is also consistent with the base idea of the skill (learning spells).

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stf911
stf911

Tavern Dweller
posted August 23, 2018 08:04 PM

Both Eagle Eye and Scholar have 2 glaring flaws: you can't learn level 5 spells with them and they need Wisdom for spells of level 3+.

If those 2 limitations were removed and you could somehow use Eagle Eye to also learn adventure map spells, like analstanley suggested (and so did I, a while back), then both skills would be good enough to be picked even over Wisdom in some situations.

@Maurice: I don't think the issue is that once you know all the spells Eagle Eye is useless. Using that trail of thought then Wisdom would be useless a well.
IMHO it's currently useless because you learn more spells with Wisdom than you do with Eagle Eye, for the reasons I stated above.

If you could use Eagle Eye to learn spells up to level 5, with a chance of 70% at all 3 skill levels (like FrothFrenzy suggested), without requiring Wisdom for level 3+ spells, than it would be excellent in 1v1 on small-medium maps, no extra "bells and whistles" required.

The only "quirk" I would add would be to make learning spells instant during combat, so you could use the spell next turn (as it stands, you learn the spells after combat, and only if you've won, if I recall correctly)

@P4R4D0X0N: I thought about having creature spells eligible for Eagle Eye, but it turned into a nightmare, from a design point of view.
Can you learn from your own creatures, or only from hostile creatures? Would an enemy AI need to factor this decision and hunt neutral spellcaster stacks, while not hiring spellcaster creatures so you have a harder time? Would you learn Fortune from Halfling's Luck and if so, at what point in the battle? Is it still fair if your opponent's starting area has many neutral spellcaster stacks and you don't?
Ended up abandoning the idea, but would love to hear more thoughts on it since I do think it would be fun if it would work right.

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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted August 23, 2018 08:49 PM

stf911 said:

@P4R4D0X0N: I thought about having creature spells eligible for Eagle Eye, but it turned into a nightmare, from a design point of view.
Can you learn from your own creatures, or only from hostile creatures? Would an enemy AI need to factor this decision and hunt neutral spellcaster stacks, while not hiring spellcaster creatures so you have a harder time? Would you learn Fortune from Halfling's Luck and if so, at what point in the battle? Is it still fair if your opponent's starting area has many neutral spellcaster stacks and you don't?
Ended up abandoning the idea, but would love to hear more thoughts on it since I do think it would be fun if it would work right.


Enemy units only of course since the main design of the skill already is for hostile spells. The 40% chance is also very well for actual spells. While monster only spells/skills should be at a rate of at max 20% chance to learn them. In addition I would also add the map skills too on same conditions, in view radius to learn spells from enemies.

I also had the backfire suggestion for the skill, since there is very few counter spell abilities in the game so far. Resistance was a step in the right direction. Eagle Eye could be another. But we need the spell update first before we could suggest something new for EE.

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FrothFrenzy
FrothFrenzy


Hired Hero
posted August 24, 2018 09:07 PM

Yeah, the Wisdom requirement is a problem. But given how specific the Eagle Eye trigger is, I don't think it would be game-breaking if that requirement was removed. It wouldn't even be too much of a precedent - I believe you can cast spells from scrolls even if you don't have the required level of Wisdom to do so? Also, in my previous post I forgot to add that spell research should be tied with the existing use case of Eagle Eye, so it gains an additional function but also preserves fidelity on custom maps.

As for Scholar, I believe Maurice reposted the analysis on which skills are offered when a hero levels up in another topic. Don't remember the details, but you are guaranteed Wisdom on certain levels. I guess that helps with Scholar heroes if they don't start with Wisdom and you level them up enough, especially if they are a magic hero.

Alternatives could be to remove the Wisdom requirement, where the hero can transfer spells but not cast them. Another one could be to rebalance heroes that start with Scholar to almost always have Wisdom as a second skill, or that they are converted into a magic hero if not. A more out-there solution could be to add the Scribe Scroll mechanic, where you can copy a spell from a mage guild to a scroll if the visiting hero has the required Scholar level, but for a certain price.

I like the idea of learning spells from creatures. I'm not sure how much "HotA" it is, though. I'm getting a vibe that the devs are preferring more subtle, focused fixes. As opposed to ones with many small but very specific uses, if you catch my meaning.

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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted August 25, 2018 12:36 AM

FrothFrenzy said:

Alternatives could be to remove the Wisdom requirement, where the hero can transfer spells but not cast them. Another one could be to rebalance heroes that start with Scholar to almost always have Wisdom as a second skill, or that they are converted into a magic hero if not. A more out-there solution could be to add the Scribe Scroll mechanic, where you can copy a spell from a mage guild to a scroll if the visiting hero has the required Scholar level, but for a certain price.



Yeah for Scholar, learning spellscrolls would be awesome, same as trading lvl5 skills. I suggested some time ago an hero even add an hero with speciality for scholar that may trade one more level. I would remove one of the Resurrection heroes from Dungeon. Jeddithe and instead of advanced wisdom I would add scholar and speciality scholar, he may teach one more level according to his scholar level up to lvl 5 spells.

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FrothFrenzy
FrothFrenzy


Hired Hero
posted August 29, 2018 12:21 PM

Some more minor things:

1. I think the starting city mage guild should have a guaranteed magic arrow. Heroes with good spell power sometimes seem wasted when the spell isn't offered (and they don't start with it), making some fights much harder than they need to be. However, if players (especially competitive ones) generally feel that getting a higher chance for spells such as haste or slow is worth more than the chance of not getting magic arrow, this is fine.

2. Formation memory in Tactics + hotkeys - while clicking to select troops does help, it still takes time to set up the same formation every single fight. Having the ability to memorize one or more formations and accessing them instantly could save a lot of time. As in, you set up the troops, press something to memorize formation, and then at any time you can just press a hotkey to instantly switch troops into their preordained positions. Hotkeys such as N for Next Creature and S for Start Combat could also help here.

3. It seems to me as if it was almost intended for Inferno might heroes to start with a spellbook. The biggest culprit is Rashka - he starts with Wisdom and Scholar but without a spellbook to use those skills. Then there is also Octavia, who starts with Scholar and Offense. I've checked all the other towns - none of them have heroes with a similar setup. I think either giving them all spellbooks, or converting Rashka into a Heretic plus rebalancing Octavia's skills (perhaps give another Heretic the Scholar skill as compensation) should be considered here.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 29, 2018 10:00 PM

FrothFrenzy said:

3. It seems to me as if it was almost intended for Inferno might heroes to start with a spellbook. The biggest culprit is Rashka - he starts with Wisdom and Scholar but without a spellbook to use those skills. Then there is also Octavia, who starts with Scholar and Offense. I've checked all the other towns - none of them have heroes with a similar setup. I think either giving them all spellbooks, or converting Rashka into a Heretic plus rebalancing Octavia's skills (perhaps give another Heretic the Scholar skill as compensation) should be considered here.

Synca the Overlord also starts with Scholar, does that mean all Overlords should start with spell and spellbook?

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FrothFrenzy
FrothFrenzy


Hired Hero
posted August 29, 2018 10:15 PM
Edited by FrothFrenzy at 22:16, 29 Aug 2018.

phoenix4ever said:
Synca the Overlord also starts with Scholar, does that mean all Overlords should start with spell and spellbook?


Ah, missed that one.

Certainly not. But it did seem a strange design choice to give a hero (Rashka) two secondary skills that he cannot use right out of the gate.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 29, 2018 10:37 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 22:57, 29 Aug 2018.

Maybe, but it is'nt hard to buy a spellbook is it? Piquedram standing in a town will also have two completely useless skills… Many skills can be useless under certain circumstances. Rashka and Octavia (Demoniacs) are Efreet and Efreet racial skill is apparently Scholar, just like Genies (Alchemists) in Tower.

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted September 05, 2018 09:54 PM

- Raise Wolf Raider amount in Cyclop Bank to 10/20/30/45 or more

as of now to defeat 20x5 wolfs and get 8 clops is just too easy, while a hive is not. and clops should be considered more valuable than wywerns, especially in first days of game

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