Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 401 pages long: 1 50 100 150 200 250 ... 277 278 279 280 281 ... 300 350 400 401 · «PREV / NEXT»
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 21, 2017 02:12 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 14:14, 21 Sep 2017.

@nargott:

Tavern is a pretty good excuse since it cannot be modified and your ideas about (16%+2% vs 12%+4%) are in my opinion plain wrong, what you are doing (as designer) is deciding for the player what skills he is going to pick when he picks a class. While my system allows the player to decide what skills he is going to pick (instead of having it forced by the designer).
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 21, 2017 02:23 PM
Edited by Nargott at 14:28, 21 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
your ideas about (16%+2% vs 12%+4%) are in my opinion plain wrong, what you are doing (as designer) is deciding for the player what skills he is going to pick when he picks a class. While my system allows the player to decide what skills he is going to pick (instead of having it forced by the designer).

Because you have giant 30-40 levels and picking much skills, yes. You want to choose 6-8 skills from 12, not from 9 + random.

That's why this is a part of complex point about high levels etc.
You can't do 2% skills if you want to play your 30-40 levels, of cause.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 21, 2017 02:27 PM

Nargott said:
magnomagus said:
your ideas about (16%+2% vs 12%+4%) are in my opinion plain wrong, what you are doing (as designer) is deciding for the player what skills he is going to pick when he picks a class. While my system allows the player to decide what skills he is going to pick (instead of having it forced by the designer).

Because you have giant 30-40 levels and picking much skills, yes. You want to choose between 6-8 skills from 12, not from 9.

That's why this is a part of complex point about high levels etc.
You can't do 2% skills if you want to play your 30-40 levels, of cause.


It does not matter if it is 10 or 30 or 40. if you have X available skills and 1/3 of them are 2% one they are out of the scheme for the player 90% of the time. Actually in 30-40 levels game they will come late game because the hero will have picked up almost all high % skills so their turn to be picked will come.

Regarding the tavern thing I still do not understand what is the problem with getting foreign heroes? The question is does this helps to abuse the mechanic and answer is no due to heroes been equally strong.
____________
Join our official discord channel | NCF Utility Beta

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 21, 2017 02:36 PM
Edited by Nargott at 15:07, 21 Sep 2017.

dredknight said:
It does not matter if it is 10 or 30 or 40. if you have X available skills and 1/3 of them are 2% one they are out of the scheme for the player 90% of the time. Actually in 30-40 levels game they will come late game because the hero will have picked up almost all high % skills so their turn to be picked will come.

No, it's very important, at low levels players want to choose among his class skills and 6-9 profile is enough if he picks only 3-4 of them. But if you give him all 12 skills available, it do his leveling less comfortable, because offering more inconvenient skills. So 12 good available skills for earlier game is bad.

You can't optimize your game to all timings: or early game, or later will suffer. And most points I had wrote were about early game.

dredknight said:
Regarding the tavern thing I still do not understand what is the problem with getting foreign heroes? The question is does this helps to abuse the mechanic and answer is no due to heroes been equally strong.

The problem is misunderstanding, because the question wasn't about abuse. The question was how many variants of unique classes I can play (theoretically) if my starting fraction is determined, and do you wish to improve this number by creating 24 unique classes (unique regardless of the fraction selected), not only 3 unique native classes per unique fraction.
For example, you add many new heroes but this extra variants are not important for me (because most of heroes is only class + specialization), so extra variants of foreign classes are not important for you (because you don't play with them and this is seen by several "foreign races disbalance" perks like dwarves formations or necro leadership), and you may simply ignore this aspect

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 21, 2017 03:09 PM

Quote:
No, it's very important, at low levels players want to choose among his class skills and 6-9 profile is enough if he picks only 3-4 of them. But if you give him all 12 skills available, it do his leveling less comfortable, because offering more inconvenient skills. So 12 good available skills for earlier game is bad.


When playing against a warlock, shatter destructive is not an inconvenient skill, but can win you the game. You are simply removing tension from the game and allow all players to know what the enemy is going to do before the game has even started.

You need to escape your rigid mathematical vision on the game and look for more inventive ways to improve it. For example H55 has witch huts that offer choice between 2 skills and ability to refuse, so put 2 witch huts in each starting areas and even in a short game 12 skills is not an issue.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 21, 2017 03:28 PM
Edited by Nargott at 15:31, 21 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
You need to escape your rigid mathematical vision on the game and look for more inventive ways to improve it. For example H55 has witch huts that offer choice between 2 skills and ability to refuse, so put 2 witch huts in each starting areas and even in a short game 12 skills is not an issue.

Ok, witch huts is interesting (and erasing difference between 4% and 12% skills even more).
So, the main idea was if you playing at low levels, you don't need all 12 skill, this is not fatal "every your skill is chosen by designer".

I had wrote also that the first class skill has chance 12% but really is 0%, because heroes have it by default (except some orcish classes). Maybe it's better to recalculate chances so giving percentages only to other skills. And if you do this, you may slightly increase class differences in accessibility between different skill groups (if you wish).

Quote:
You are simply removing tension from the game and allow all players to know what the enemy is going to do before the game has even started.

This ratio read/guess is individual preference and nothing more to say about
Although, 2% skills are less common, but when they meet, surprise the opponent much stronger.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 21, 2017 03:36 PM

@Magno I found an issue on my wheel.
Academy -> Havez starts with Advanced Luck + Magic resistance while on the wheel it shows him starting with "solder's luck". I assume you revert this to magic resistance after finding out that "solder's luck does not bring any benefit to Academy and after improving the skill you did not give it back to him.

My question is should I put it as it is in the game (resistance) or you will tweak him again in the next version (soldier's luck)?

@Nargott I think there is difference in the vision of what a class means for you and for me. In the vision you have we have 3 classes - Might, balanced, Magic. They are the same for all factions where for each faction the class representation differs depending on their lore. When it comes to pure math they are more or less the same 3 classes.

In the vision I have there are 24 classes because I take the lore factor in mind because the lore makes the practical game much different even though math is the same. There is quite a big difference between starting with advanced in luck or offense or defense or Combat as it requires a different approach in first month tactics in PvE (the one you really like) and the order of skill picks after on.

____________
Join our official discord channel | NCF Utility Beta

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 21, 2017 04:07 PM
Edited by Nargott at 17:02, 21 Sep 2017.

dredknight said:
@Nargott I think there is difference in the vision of what a class means for you and for me. In the vision you have we have 3 classes - Might, balanced, Magic. They are the same for all factions where for each faction the class representation differs depending on their lore. When it comes to pure math they are more or less the same 3 classes.

Not so rigid, some subgroups are separated, for example offensive Might and defensive Might. But in this situation any additional difference is good. This is my point, when I see two subjects, I always look at difference between them. What is new, must have be real new, not duplicating

dredknight said:
In the vision I have there are 24 classes because I take the lore factor in mind because the lore makes the practical game much different even though math is the same. There is quite a big difference between starting with advanced in luck or offense or defense or Combat as it requires a different approach in first month tactics in PvE (the one you really like) and the order of skill picks after on.

I understand, lore says you don't use foreign heroes as main heroes and that's why you don't
You say, difference is enough because of lore, I say that it can be improved, if you see on the most similar classes and work better with different numbers. What is the question, doing or not - this is your mod, and not me make decisions. I'm simple stranger and practically will be interested (as a player) at 2 sitiations:

1) you support early game (1-2 month), it means that you play some games on such maps and guarant that gameplay is good (really good, not good as for rushing styles only) and balance is practically ok; it lesser probably, but it will be good not only for me, you would write that "balance is good for any time 1-10 months" and many new players would want to try it, no asking "what to do on the map 3+ months"

2) or somehow you give strong motivation to play 3+ months at strategical point of view, giving strategical answer to question about what to do this time, not simple gather more creatures, more towns and more strong artifacts, because player can reach all of them in 1-2 months (in other modifications or in TotE).

These two points are the most principled things (more important than all other points together), but are very difficult, and I have no right to demand them
And another 2 situations:

3) PvP arena, this is difficult too, but do you plan to do it?

4) Duel mode, but I doubt that this format contains any significant improvements from MMH5.5 (except x10 more creatures?), because MMH5.5 is map-oriented

Quote:
There is quite a big difference between starting with advanced in luck or offense or defense or Combat

Yes, there is, and it's good, but the class is not only how is starts. I look more to how it can be developed to PvP battle.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 21, 2017 05:00 PM

Actually there is a lot to do on the adventure maps for about ~5 months straight. Even if there are no other players present. There is so much things to do on the adventure map that you do not have enough heroes. Good news is that the most boring stuff are automated since @Magno made a subscribe option for the once-per-week bonus buildings such as windmills.

Regarding classes your approach is more abstract - you use heroes V Tote to make the most variations and condemning lore.

On the other side we have decided to revolve the whole idea around certain lore as this makes a more all-round product because without lore or story games feel a bit plain.

We still do not have our own campaign but we really want to. This will require a campaign/map maker with skills in story telling, knowledge of M&M lore just as much as map editing and scripting. On the top of that it is very time consuming thing to do on its own (I guess @Markur can give a brief overview on how much time his maps took to make).
____________
Join our official discord channel | NCF Utility Beta

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 21, 2017 05:10 PM
Edited by Nargott at 17:17, 21 Sep 2017.

dredknight said:
Actually there is a lot to do on the adventure maps for about ~5 months straight. Even if there are no other players present. There is so much things to do on the adventure map that you do not have enough heroes. Good news is that the most boring stuff are automated since @Magno made a subscribe option for the once-per-week bonus buildings such as windmills.

If you think so, can you show it on the stream? Although this phrase frightens me:
Quote:
Even if there are no other players present.

Because I ask for strategical reason to play so much long. If a player like PvE, he may do it 12+ months even in TotE, without any reasons and improvements

At good maps of Heroes 3 I can open bigger part of map and have many towns, several armies etc. on the first month (maybe second). The main difference is all these armies will be lead by high-level heroes with good skills?

Quote:
On the other side we have decided to revolve the whole idea around certain lore as this makes a more all-round product because without lore or story games feel a bit plain.

Yes, in strategic game lore is the less important part, and I look at Heroes with such point of view.

dredknight said:
We still do not have our own campaign but we really want to. This will require a campaign/map maker with skills in story telling, knowledge of M&M lore just as much as map editing and scripting. On the top of that it is very time consuming thing to do on its own (I guess @Markur can give a brief overview on how much time his maps took to make).

Campaign is good for many players, but not for such PvP player as me.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 21, 2017 05:17 PM

@dredknight: If a perk is given at start, it is always the middle to prevent locking out of skills, so manual has to be adjusted.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 21, 2017 05:27 PM
Edited by Nargott at 17:55, 21 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
@dredknight: If a perk is given at start, it is always the middle to prevent locking out of skills, so manual has to be adjusted.

This is optimal decision, but what about heroes that has specialization at other perks?

About PvE, do you turn game into analogue of Kings Bounty, but with towns? With many quests, stories and etc.? Because then this is another genre (popular but no strategy, although it has some elements), and evaluate the game need not from a strategic point of view. For example, in RPG players like to develop hero to max level, even with losses of variability, even if take the same skills/perks, the main variability is given by external factors - locations, quests and artifacts. RPG genre has own rules, players like to gather even 1% micro bonuses.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 21, 2017 05:47 PM
Edited by dredknight at 17:48, 21 Sep 2017.

Nargott,

Heroes 3 RMG adventure map becomes boring somewhere around month 2. Because most of the fights are straight forward so there is no tactical element in PvE anymore around that time. Your hero is so strong that he punches through the creatures like butter.

MMH55 slow hero growing rate + mixed neutral armies + special sites mixed strengthen armies adds way more tactical elements in PvE than anything RMG generated that existed in ToTe or any of the previous games.

You can have an army of archers protected by shielded soldiers and unlike the default PvE all-in tactics if ranged stack exists in the PvE army the melee creatures will not charge forward  but stay behind and wait for incoming troops so at one point it is you who should be active on the battlefield not the PvE. Compare this to ToTe and heroes 3 where the player just waited for the charging army to come in range and just obliterate it.


I can help as much as to show some replays for the moment.
Streaming is something I have thought about but it requires too much spare time. Progress > advertisement for the moment so I prefer to work on other stuff until we exhaust what we have as new material.


@Magno I assumed so but decided to double check .
____________
Join our official discord channel | NCF Utility Beta

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 21, 2017 05:59 PM
Edited by Nargott at 18:18, 21 Sep 2017.

dredknight said:
MMH55 slow hero growing rate

This is important, do you give less experience for killing neutrals? I have not found such info.

Quote:
You can have an army of archers protected by shielded soldiers and unlike the default PvE all-in tactics if ranged stack exists in the PvE army the melee creatures will not charge forward  but stay behind and wait for incoming troops so at one point it is you who should be active on the battlefield not the PvE. Compare this to ToTe and heroes 3 where the player just waited for the charging army to come in range and just obliterate it.

Yes, I understand, you do PvE battles more interesting but long. What time you need to do one day turn commonly? 10 minutes like TE or 20 minutes like Heroes 4? Or even more?

I have experience in Age of Wonders 3 campaign, one day turn can take 30-60 minutes because I'm playing without loads and there are many strategical decisions to do, and there are super combats but long (and I am newbie at that game). This is good in campaign, but PvP with such timings I will never want to play, maybe 1-2 times no more
So I think that for PvP mode you need to support more speed game. One of the variant is supporting automatic fights against all neutrals - if such conditions, it is easy possible to play even 6 months.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 21, 2017 06:07 PM

Quote:
This is important, do you give less experience for killing neutrals? I have not found such info.


Not exactly, Normal difficulty = TOE
Hard and heroic difficulties are adjusted to develop at the same speed as normal difficulty (just like in any well designed RPG game, otherwise the player would levelup faster just for increasing the difficulty).
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 21, 2017 06:12 PM

magnomagus said:
Not exactly, Normal difficulty = TOE
Hard and heroic difficulties are adjusted to develop at the same speed as normal difficulty (just like in any well designed RPG game, otherwise the player would levelup faster just for increasing the difficulty).

= TOE normal or TOE heroic?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 21, 2017 06:18 PM

When it comes to time it depends on the player. You play chess so you know that when you play without clock there is always that player who takes ages to think of his turn.

When it comes to my experience and the people I play with, a game turn is no more than 10 minutes. First/second weeks are very fast because you  cannot afford to fight every day.
____________
Join our official discord channel | NCF Utility Beta

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 21, 2017 06:22 PM
Edited by Nargott at 18:35, 21 Sep 2017.

dredknight said:
When it comes to my experience and the people I play with, a game turn is no more than 10 minutes. First/second weeks are very fast because you  cannot afford to fight every day.

10 minutes is not bad (but not dynamic too). TE players have 2-3 manual combats PvE or more for this time, per turn.
But avoiding fights at 1-2 weeks, skipping days, is it a good idea?
Maybe it's better to have more number of light guards at template?

So if you avoid fights then your hero growth slowly, I understand. And building your town not every day also?

Quote:
I can help as much as to show some replays for the moment.

Replays will show no information, because this is only PvE combat. And I had see such combat already. This is important to see global situation on the map, because map is strategical factor, not combats.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 21, 2017 06:31 PM
Edited by dredknight at 18:32, 21 Sep 2017.

it all depends on the difficulty of the game and monsters.

The one that is best for competitive play (very strong monsters; heroic strength) allows to build each day if you plan your fights. The worst I have happened is build 6 out of 7 days.

____________
Join our official discord channel | NCF Utility Beta

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 21, 2017 07:33 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 19:41, 21 Sep 2017.

Quote:
= TOE normal or TOE heroic?


TOE has only one setting = 1

EDIT:

@Nargott: Can you give link to PvP map for your style of playing, I would like to check it for balance issues in H55 system.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: Next Thread » This Popular Thread is 401 pages long: 1 50 100 150 200 250 ... 277 278 279 280 281 ... 300 350 400 401 · «PREV / NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.4560 seconds